dgray_man | Allen and the 14th; sense of identity

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Allen and the 14th; sense of identity

Discussion/theory of the awakening (or lack of) of the 14th and Allen's own sense of identity. Spoilers for chapter 184 and 182.

When I was involving myself in a discussion elsewhere about the dream Allen had in the latest chapter, I came to wonder about the nature of the times of the 14th coming to the surface lately.

I've read about people thinking that something like Mana's curse or something are what is keeping Allen in control, but I wonder if it has to do with Allen's sense of self more so instead rather than an outside force.

I was remembering how back during the Theif G arc when Crown Clown began hurting him right after he declared it's willingness/capability to only hurt that which is evil. Allen does not consider himself evil but Crown Clown, who is more than just a weapon to him but like a partner who is almost like his other half and the only one who can help him save akuma is attacking him as well now. Such a shock would cause a sense of off balance somehow.

Also during the newest chapter Allen is choosing despite his surrondings to regress to the exact same child form that accompied Mana during their days. The only exception is that his left eye and hair he gained after Mana left him is still the same (something which makes me consider that Allen still has a firm sense enough of himself to not regress completely). Mana is slowly changing his perception of Allen's identity from Allen's view by calling him something else that confuses and dismays Allen.

During these two times Allen is casued some great deal of sorts of distress about his own perception of himself from close sources and during these two times the 14th awakens in control of Allen's body for a short time before Allen regains a firm sense of himself again.

During the first time, it's Kanda calling out to him that apperently reminds Allen enough of who and what he is to push back the 14th. The second time it's Lenalee saying Allen's name to him (something that Mana had stopped doing just a bit ago in his dream) that snapped Allen awake and dismissed the 14th's presense from the surface.
I recall back to Cross's words about Allen needing to walk his own path and be himself and I wonder if that means as long as Allen has a firm sense/confidence of his own identity the 14th's is either unable or has a hard time removing Allen's presence enough to make himself more dominant inside the host.

So in conclusion during the times the 14th has awakened such as in the current chapter he is always push back in favor of Allen being the dominant again when Allen hears something familiar/acknowledged connected to his identity such as his name or a very common nickname.

Which makes me wonder if in fact Allen's own sense of identity is what the 14th needs and wants to waver for him to takeover as the alpha presense completely.

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Your theory is quite convincing and I think along the same lines. Allen's sense of self still exists, therefore he responded to his own name. It makes sense if the first time when the 14th awakes, the 14th was aware that Allen took back over control because Kanda called him "moyashi".

It makes perfect sense if the 14th tries to erase Allen's sense of self in order to gain control of his body. However, using the image of Mana, his elder brother, for something like that is rather dirty method.

Thank you.

Even though it may be a little soon to think this, I think as long as Allen has links to what he has trust in regarding himself he could push away the 14th. Having Kanda and Lenalee calling to him still (as long as there is some self-awareness of himself intact) as a comrade is something he can have trust in in reminding him of his identity and whether he's aware or not can remain alpha of the body since currently it's more his.

Not sure how much of a bad guy I want to make out the 14th since in dgm no one seems that one-d. But I do think the dream Mana could be a trick to distract Allen by leading him to become confused about what he knows. Despite what he said earlier thinking Mana not seeing him for him must be a touchy subject still. Nasty uncle. X/

Well...this makes a lot of sense and I agree with you. Allen really needs to keep his sense of identity and purpose in control. He has a very strong will and he is surrounded by friends who can help him, so I hope that he won't have too much trouble against to 14th. But then again, it matters how strong the 14th's will is as well. Anyone who goes against the Earl no matter the odds would probably have a strong will as well.

What I would like to see is Allen becoming the 14th but not losing his identity as well. I can imagine that would take extraordinary will power if he'll receive the memories from the 14th and not let it consume him at the same time. I would like to see Allen be able to control the 14th and use whatever abilities the 14th has.

I believe Skin lost on that front. He let his Noah consume him and he didn't have the necessary will power to keep him at bay. I don't want such a fate for Allen.

If in the end, Allen can suppress the 14th and use his powers, that would be very very cool. We can probably imagine a long struggle of power control and battles of willpower before getting there.

Allen won't be lost, I firmly believe. However, I do think the 14th will eventually have total control before Allen wins back.

Hm, It is good that Allen has help from his friends in keeping the 14th in check whether he knows it or not. Though I would hope if that is the case eventually he will get to the point of not needing help from others by becoming secure enough on his own. He already has shown he wants to, but
I doubt it will be an easy/quick road.

You mean like have a symbiotic relationship where they kind of co-exist together? That kind of thing I can see happening easily actually if they both manage to find a comprimise of sorts or Allen just becomes good enough to control his noah nature without submitting to it.

Don't want that to happen either. X/ Like you said it will probably be a battle of wills and how confident/firm Allen is in his own sense of self.

I was thinking a lot about this too and I have some questions and theories myself. Correct me at any point if I am wrong but when the 14th died, Mana had adopted Allen by that time I presume, so between that time the 14th gave his powers to Allen which means he had to have meet Allen? also when the 14th died didn't Mana sort of lose it? I think that Mana saw his brother in Allen or sensed him, like the 14th was always present, not just now in the recent chapters, it is just that Allen had been more dominant. Mana may have lumped up the two together, just like when Allen thought about when Mana said he loved him, was he actually meaning this for his brother or his adopted son? Cross had also said that he had known about it I think? so that means for a long time his identity was in constant question. Also his innocence was connected to him and his heart this whole time, so why suddenly, it went against him. I'm guessing it does this when the host takes over or something ;;

Edited 2009-04-13 19:31 (UTC)

I believe Allen may lose control eventually as well. He doesn't seem to realize that the 14th is taking over his body at times, which is really alarming. The 14th is so subtle that Allen doesn't even realize what's going on. I wonder if Lenalee and Kanda will say anything? If they don't, then Allen may not even have a chance to fight back at first and he may lose control from the very beginning.

Yeah, I meant that they may have a battle of wills and whoever is strongest will end up in control. I'm going to compare it to Skin because he is the only Noah we know anything about, but he couldn't control his Noah at all because Wrath's Memory was the most potent of all the Noah. He wasn't strong enough to overcome the emotions coming from Wrath's memories. Skin never really had a fighting chance with that Noah anyway because it was so powerful. We don't know how powerful 14th's memories are, and Allen may be stronger than Skin anyway, but it does seem like Allen would have to fight the emotions that will overcome him. His will needs to be strong for that or else the 14th will just erode him like Cross said and there will be nothing left of him.

I also like them co-existing together as well. It will make Allen's relationship with the 14th more peaceful and I believe that they have similar goals. However, it doesn't seem to be in the nature of Noahs to co-exist with their host from what we seen so far. I hope I'm wrong because I like this idea better than them battling each other, but from what Cross said and what happened to Skin, it may not happen. But the 14th may be different from other Noahs.

zettafae: I've had that feeling from what we've seen of Allen that he seems to not be all too aware of what the 14th is doing lately. It could be the theory, as scary as it is, of the 14th's takeover being subtle enough where Allen has no clue of the difference between himself and another. Makes me wonder if anyone who does notice will actually tell Allen instead of keeping it to themselves (or maybe it was off panel, in that case I'm little dissapointed)?

strawberrypenis: First off, interesting username. XD

1. We actually don't know when the 14th died, just that it happened sometime before Allen's adoption.

2. Translations have said that, but I think it was confirmed that it was really "he went kind of funny in that head".

Wish we did know more about Mana's feelings, personally I like to think Mana even if he didn't at first, did come to truly love Allen for himself. But we don't have a confirmation yet. XP

Identity does seem to be a theme in dgm. With Allen's Mask of Mana, Lavi's different persona's, the noahs most particulary Tykki's double sides/life, even the Earl's real face... Allen's search and acceptance of his own identity after trying to make himself someone different in Mana's image by now trying to accept and like his true self will probably tie in with his struggle against the 14th (I think).

Actually, we really don't know when the memories where implanted in Allen because Cross doesn't know. All we know was that the memories were implanted in him before the 14th died and everything else is just speculation. The 14th may have seen Allen or even met him (we don't know) before he died and decided to implant the memories in him because no one would miss him. Maybe he saw Allen as he was dying and decided to implant the memories in him because no one else was around. Either way we don't know. I believe this had happen a little before Allen met Mana.

I agree that his identity has always been in question and Allen never knew about it until recently. He puts up a really good front, saying he doesn't care about the 14th but with the dream we can see he still has his doubts and that may cause trouble for him later on. I hope there will be a time when he realizes Mana did love him for himself (I believe this to be true!) and not for his brother. If he realizes this, the 14th may never be able to take over.

His Innocence does seem to be unforgiving, doesn't it? But then again, Allen should have realized what it meant when he is the host for the 14th. He isn't pure anymore like any other human, even if he does wield Innocence. I don't think his Innocence will turn against him, but it was trying to remind him of his situation. But it doesn't seem like Crown Clown working with the 14th either like many have predicted.

If they do tell Allen I highly doubt it will be off panel. It would be nice if we have more of an idea of what happened to Allen during when the 14th took over, but the fact that he doesn't remember his dream screams that he doesn't realize that the 14th took him over. But in Ch. 182, when Kanda called Allen idiot beansprout (or baka moyashi) Allen seemed to be aware of what he said because of his response afterward. When Lenalee talked to him in Ch. 184, it is a little more ambiguous if Allen realized what Lenalee said. His only response was saying her name and not actually answering any of her questions (but then again Link interrupts). Of well, we just don't know what happens to Allen. ><

I love how you point out how identity is a theme in DGM. I haven't realized it. I would love to understand more of what this "Mask of Mana" is. I guess it is his smiling face and polite speach, but I feel like that is only part of it.

I have to agree, especially because Allen's world has basically been falling apart since the Ark, and he hasn't really had time to deal with it.

Actually, when he said her name that first time in this chapter, he seemed like he was only just realizing she was there. And when Lenalee seemed concerned about him, he thought it was only about the fever. I think that in both chapters, Allen didn't realize that the 14th took over for a few moments.

I've always thought this Mask of Mana thing referred more to his selfless attitude, especially since he's been scolded before by Lenalee for not taking good enough care of himself. Ie, the person he became after Mana's death.

Zettafae: Thank you. Identity does seem to be a big theme, I didn't realise how much until after I posted about it. XP

Regarding the "Mask of Mana" I'm pretty sure it's his polite speech and how he tries to potray himself in a certain image all the time unless he's stressed or really angry about something. Allen is a very self-protective person, in his whole life he has not trusted in anyone completely with himself besides Mana and Cross.

Allen is a much more rougher person then he lets on and from what we've seen of his conversation with Johnny and Lenalee, speaking politely is not as natural as he would others to believe. It seems to be a forced habit he made himself have because Mana always spoke like that. So the whole "Mask of Mana" seems to be really Allen trying so hard to be just like Mana personality wise instead of letting his own true one out more.

It has nothing to do with being selfless. That is a result of his own feelings and love for akuma/humanity. Allen may not have been this selfless before (he didn't have a reason to even know about akuma before Mana) but he's always had a big heart, shown when he first met Mana and sobbed over a dog he barely new for a day because it licked his left hand. X/

I always believed Allen had this type of selfless attitude even as a street kid. But now that I think about it, urchin Allen didn't seem to be the saving type. It makes sense that he would develop such an attitude after Mana's death since he doesn't want anyone to die. But I really believe that it is his own personalty and not a facade he puts up in front of people.

That does seem to be what the "Mask of Mana" is although I was wondering if there was more to it. I hope Allen lets his true personality shine through more. His friends and fans like it. Heh. XD

Well, I wasn't referring to his tendency to save people so much as his disregard for his own life.

Ah, that. Well he's been doing a bit better with that then he used to before. XP

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