ext_41821 ([identity profile] lovely-fatima.livejournal.com) wrote in [community profile] dgray_man2008-09-23 08:41 am

What if...

As I was re-reading the most recent manga issues, a rather disturbing thought occurred to me.



So, when Cross gives Allen the low-down on his true identity - i.e. the host for the memories of the Fourteenth - he asks him a question: "If I told you that when you turn into the Fourteenth, you'll have to kill the humans who are important to you, then what would you do?"

Allen, of course, is outraged--as we, the readers, are supposed to be. After all, the Black Order, the Exorcists and the Finders and all those people, they're the good guys, right? Right?

Well...what if they aren't?

What if that is part of the "hidden side of the war" that Cross alluded to?

There are several things that seem to indicate that the truth behind the war and what we have been led to believe are two completely separate entities and that the Black Order might not be the righteous organization that everyone thinks it is.

1. The references to hatred and monstrosity in connection with the Innocence.

Upon numerous occasions, Lenalee states that she hates the Innocence for what it does to her, her family, and her friends. Also, look at what happens to Parasitic users like Krory (I still think his name should be spelled CROWLEY, gorrammit!) and Allen when their Innocence is activated, particularly in the early chapters of the series. Allen develops this horrendous claw while Krory turns into an actual *monster*--a vampire that feeds on the blood of Akuma. There are even moments when some of the Equipment users mention that the Innocence makes Parasitic users into monsters. Suman Dark turns into a monster because he supposedly "betrays" his Innocence. The Earl calls the Innocence "the Devil. Furthermore, as time goes on, we see the Innocence using the bodies of its hosts with little regard to the wellbeing and safety of that host.

2. The imprisonment, torture, and sacrifice of children.

Again, I'll start with Lenalee. She's brought to the Order apparently against her will, as evidenced by the number of times she tries to escape in one way or another before Komui becomes a member. She is even told, by Leverrier (Rouvellier?) that there *is* no escape for her, no matter what she does. Leverrier's own family has a long connection involving Hevlaska that seems to suggest that the daughters of the family are sacrified to become a part of that entity. Likewise, Lenalee, Komui and others make frequent mention of experiments conducted on what we see are children (in the flashback drawings anyway) to determine if they are compatible users with the Innocence. Add to this Leverrier's words and behavior during the Level 4 attack, and a picture emerges of an organization that is more than willing to send children off to slaughter in the name of righteousness.

Incidentally, The Children's Crusade was a very real instance of children going off to fight and die for the cause of Christendom in the latter stages of the Crusades. I see certain similarities in DGM in that people tend to refer to the main Exorcist characters as "children".

3. The true nature of the Akuma

About the time of the Edo/Noah's Ark chapters, the Earl is playing on his pipe organ/piano/whatever, and he mentions that the heart of the Ark is the place from whence *both* the current race of humans and the race of the Noah originated. Since the heart of the Ark tends to be closely connected with the "Egg"--which we know as the Akuma factory--this might suggest that humans, Noah and Akuma are more closely related than we might otherwise suspect. When the Level 4 attacks, Bookman is quick to point out that in all the records of the hidden histories, they've never had any confirmation of what Akuma look like beyond Level 3. He and Tiedoll (I believe) both marvel that the Level 4 looks strangely human. Later, the Earl comments that he's happy the Order never got a chance to run full experiments on the Egg, because that would mean discovery of certain secrets about the true nature of the Akuma that he does not want revealed.


So, my thought is that maybe Allen (and hopefully others) will come to see that the Order is not necessarily fighting for the side of "right" in this case. I also think that the Fourteenth's rebellion indicates that *he* didn't think the Earl and the Noah were any more right in their own respect. Perhaps what Cross meant was that Allen was going to have to eventually turn against his friends in the Order just as the Fourteenth turned against his own family in times past.

Thoughts? Ideas?
murdering: (Default)

[personal profile] murdering 2008-09-23 01:47 am (UTC)(link)
I've always had a suspicion that the Noah are really on the 'side of God' in this whole affair. Seeing how... Well. I could write an essay, but you covered my points about why I don't trust the Innocence.
ext_57926: (Default)

[identity profile] mrpanadabear.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 01:55 am (UTC)(link)
Especially with the appearance of Hitler, I've considered it. And I think it was pretty interesting that she chose to name the enemy Noah.

[identity profile] loveambulance.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 01:57 am (UTC)(link)
I suddenly feel kind of stupid for not realizing any of this earlier..

[identity profile] animalboything.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 01:59 am (UTC)(link)
It's always been a consideration of mine. I tried writing about it a bit in some fic stuff because it'dbe a really interesting twist. Granted, there are so many things askew, but also if the old theory stands that DGM was for Dorian Gray-man then that'd mean that Allen, sweet and innocent as he looks, would end up killing the one he loves (aka Basil) then kill himself and really be a villain.

I've had a thought for awhile that the person Allen has to kill is Kanda because there was a reference to "that person" in both Cross' speech to Allen, and Kanda's "I can't die until I meet that person." Still linger on it.

[identity profile] usagi-alchemist.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 02:37 am (UTC)(link)
I had wondered about this sort of thing. The experiments the Order carried out on children were what first made me think about it, and I'm interested to see where we'll end up.
ext_23824: (Default)

Meaning behind the name 'D.Gray-man'

[identity profile] yamamoto-kou.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 02:53 am (UTC)(link)
There was a small box in the fan book where Hoshino mentioned about what the name means. I don't have the book with me atm and my Japanese is less than trustworthy, but from what I've gleaned, the 'Gray-man' part has something to do with (the nature of?) Allen, Innocence and Akuma while 'D' is because there are lots of things in the series that starts with D.

Something like that anyway.

[identity profile] calasstriastar.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 02:53 am (UTC)(link)
I agree with most of what was discussed, and now my own opinion:

The way I see it, Allen is definately being painted as an unconventional Christ figure in DGM. Jesus never really fit in with any part of society, astranged from both the religious and non-religious figure heads of his time. Yet people who were of lower class or ranking as well as friends and family loved him and followed him closely.

Allen is kind of the same. He doesn't exactly belong no matter where he goes as far as big groups are concerned, but he has several beloved friends and aquaintences who care deeply for him (though some people won't admit it). The twist in his story is that instead of sacrificing himself, he may be forced to sacrifice someone he loves. That, I think, is where the question of who truly is on God's side comes into play...

Here's the other kicker. We don't know who he's going to kill. I'm thinking he's going to be torn between at least three people... I don't even think I need to specify those individuals to anyone >>;;

[identity profile] nylle15.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 02:54 am (UTC)(link)
The theory seems really plausible. Ever since the Innocence experiments were mentioned, I've been having some doubts about the Order and the Central, in that they seem to have something up their sleeves that's not really pleasant. Also, I've always been curious as to why Hoshino used "Noah" to refer to the Order's enemies - so there might really be something in that.

Re: Meaning behind the name 'D.Gray-man'

[identity profile] animalboything.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 02:56 am (UTC)(link)
Ah, had she? That's good. The Dorian Gray part I'm sure was just because no one knew what it was at the beginning, and I'd only heard that nickname recently, though the idea certainly is interesting.

[identity profile] anime-manga-fan.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 03:14 am (UTC)(link)
Wow... I never pieced it together before. It makes more sense in my mind now that you mention it, after what Cross said to Allen, and the reasons behind it.

I will be amazed if it is legit in later chapters, if Allen turns his back against the Order because of those reasons.
ext_23824: (Default)

[identity profile] yamamoto-kou.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 03:48 am (UTC)(link)
Woah. I've noticed all that but putting all those points together makes it so much more clearer.

There's also the whole shady affair of the 'Three Days of Darkness' in the past, which their history wrote down as 'The Great Flood'. Though we've heard that there was a great battle and everything, we haven't really had a true account of what actually happened (This could be solved when Allen awakens...). For all we know, the Earl and Noah were the good guys (bad guys usually don't have such peaceful and bright homes like the white Ark, but that just could be their odd preferences) and the Innocence was going to destroy the world/twist it in some inhuman way. The Innocence might have done the latter actually, since the Noahs go on about 'not forgiving the Innocence' and 'seeing the true form of this world'.

No, I'm not saying the Earl and the Noahs are the 100% good guys, but the Innocence is definitely up to something, and I'm thinking it's something bad. Because apart from eluding the Earl, it looks like the Heart of Innocence intends to keep the Black Order from finding out it's true intentions. It might also be doing something out there...

Looking at it like that, the 14th may actually be the good guy here despite the fact that he will be of both Noah and Innocence. Allen may well leave the Black Order, but so might most of the Black Order members like some of the other Exorcists and scientists if they find out. Central and the Black Crows would make them stay though...

Speculations, speculations. :/

[identity profile] ginzai.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 04:01 am (UTC)(link)
I don't trust the Order. Ever since they raised the point of what happened to 'Heretics', I've been somewhat nervous about them and as time progressed, I've distrusted them more and more. All you need to do is think of the kidnapping and blackmailing that they seem to indulge in with no remorse or their rampant experimentation on children to realize that the Order isn't made of pure holy-minded innocents. Then again, I don't believe that the Innocence is corrupt. I doubt we've learned even a fraction of what goes into it, to be honest, or much at all about its true nature. It's like the Ark technology: it's thousands of years old and there has to be more to the back story of both sides' weaponry than the little we've heard.

It's what makes Allen as a blend of Noah and Exorcist (and Akuma, if you want to take the scar into account) so interesting. He's a rallying point for both the Noah and those had at Headquarters, with both sides seeming to like and be intrigued by him. I can't help but to think that the Earl and the Order are both corruptions of what should have been - and that Allen is going to somehow lead both groups back to the right path.

[identity profile] symbolism-egg.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 04:10 am (UTC)(link)
I would love that plot twist. The Noahs aren't good people, that's for sure, but it would be very interesting if the Black Order itself was evil. We need more information from the Noahs' POV.

He and Tiedoll (I believe) both marvel that the Level 4 looks strangely human.

Oh my God, now that you've said that...its hermaphroditic features indicate that it's a very frightening Adam Kadmon. Is the new human race supposed to come from Akuma? Is that why humans and Akuma were both from the Ark? That would be an interesting theme for Hoshino to use. See also this. (http://www.newkabbalah.com/adam.html)

[identity profile] calasstriastar.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 04:20 am (UTC)(link)
I can't help but to think that the Earl and the Order are both corruptions of what should have been - and that Allen is going to somehow lead both groups back to the right path.

That's exactly what I think hence the Christ references. You worded it better, though.

[identity profile] calasstriastar.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 05:08 am (UTC)(link)
*nods* Definitely not a coincidence. And yes that dream reminded me of the "Pieta" as well. (Kind of the reason why I see Lenalee being such a mother figure, to be honest >>;;;) I love spotting all the religious subtext in DGM. It's like the Bible version of the game "I Spy," though there are references to other faiths in there, too.

Hmm, that I never considered. I'll be waiting to hear more of your theories^_^

Hah... why must I always get so into series that remind me of my Catholic upbringing? lol

[identity profile] yezhanquan85.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 05:17 am (UTC)(link)
I'll say that the extent of the story will depend on DGM's sales. If sales are good, then Hoshino-sensei will be able to get her ideas fully expressed. If not, well...

WSJ has axed so many series that it makes me sigh.

[identity profile] maryohki.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 05:51 am (UTC)(link)
I really, really hope this isn't correct, but...I can see it. Considering that, in the Bible, Noah had to do something that was unpopular, but he was the one on the side of God, and his task was to basically eradicate humans save himself and his wife...Also, not to mention, why the hell is the Order known as the Black Order? Usually "Black" is in reference to bad things, such as the Black Death.

I just really, REALLY hope that this doesn't come true. As much as I like the Earl and Tyki, none of the other Noah do much for me, and I love Miranda, Komui, Kanda, Lavi, etc etc WAY too much to see them turn into villains...especially Miranda ;__;. Imagine how she'd feel if she found out that after all that time, her finally becoming "useful" was a lie, and she was on the evil side? And if Allen switches sides, she'll have to know...*wibble*

[identity profile] arivess.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 06:18 am (UTC)(link)
But you have to look at it the other way, too. Maybe the Order isn't good, true, but you can't forget what the Earl and his people do.

They kill people.

If there's any evil, it'd be both the sides. And when you look at it, that's what war is: two opposing sides, both with their good, and both with their bad.

[identity profile] minato-arisato.livejournal.com 2008-09-23 06:20 am (UTC)(link)
The signs were already there in volume 6, but at that point, I thought it was mere desperation that pushed the Black Order to such means. As the story progressed though, we've seen that the Black Order has a long history of doing this, and that the Innocence itself is twisted, with seemingly little care for its wielders.

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