dgray_man | Discussion time~ ♥

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Discussion time~ ♥

All right! So, in the light of recent events, I think we need to discuss some theories regarding Allen, Mana, certain fourteenth and, naturally, our beloved Earl. I've got pictures~

Okay, let's hit the facts:

7000 thousand years ago, God chose Noah to carry on with the world after the Great Flood. There were thirteen other Noahs who appeared besides the first disciple (a.k.a. Earl of the Millennium), and one of those Noahs (also called the Fourteenth) rebelled against the Earl and used the "Heart" to fight him. Nevertheless, the Earl defeated him and the remaining twelve apostles became the ancestors of modern humanity. Those apostles have been reincarnating into several humans from different eras so they can aid the Earl (who is still the same from 7000 years ago) in his fight against those who use the power of the Innocence.

Everything was running smoothly until, for some mysterious reason (we don't actually know if the 14th's memory continued to pass on or not) the 14th reincarnated into Mana Walker's brother. Nothing as of yet has been revealed from the Walker's brother past, only that they were close enough that Mana stayed with him until the Earl killed him.

I actually had a theory for this. I thought that Mana's brother had been able to deceive, in one way or another, the Noah memories. I think that their only desire (the Walker brothers) was to be together, but the Noah outbursts coming out of the youngest Walker were an impediment for that. My reasoning takes me to believe that Mana's brother tried to kill the Earl so the Noah memories could be destroyed and he would live happily with his brother being himself. But, as his plan failed and the Earl ended up killing him, the only logical outcome would be that Mana's brother implanted his memories in some random person so he could be with his brother again. In fact, Cross actually verified this, when he stated that the fourteenth had personally asked him to watch over Mana.

So! This would only lead us to think that the memories implanted in Allen are those of Mana's younger brother, right? Wrong.

The Noahfication, as I heard some say, that Allen suffered in chapter 189 is none other than the actual 14th, the one that rebelled against the first disciple 7000 years ago and that still wants to kill him so he can become the Earl of the Millennium.

Time to do the math, guys! Allen worked in the circus doing odd jobs until he met Mana when he was around 6-9 years old. Then, Mana died when he was around 10-12 so Allen went along with Cross until he became 15 and joined the Order. At least 2 years have passed since that, so our now more muscular and mature Allen from chapters 187-189 must be around 17 years old. ~~In chapter 187 the Earl said that~~ ~~35 years had passed~~ since he had killed Mana's brother and the rest of the Noahs had received memory damage. So, what was Mana doing in that 24-year gap since his brother died and he met Allen? ~~And more importantly, exactly how old is Cross? ;;~~

EDIT: Translation error. 35 years ago the 14th killed the other Noahs, so he did stay with Mana for a longer while and it was less than 24 years until Mana met with Allen. Thanks, nefadol ! Link

That's it, right? Did I miss something? Anyways... I'd love to hear your thoughts and theories regarding this matter. Shall the discussion begin? ♥

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Wow, that's actually a long time gap I'd never considered! I was under the impression he'd died shortly before Mana found Allen, or even when Allen and Mana already knew each other. :o

You're right about it being at least two years, though, in his fight against Road in the Ark, Lavi says it (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/119/20/), so by chapter 187-189 it's actually been over 2 years, probably closer to three. :>

Yeah, me too. I didn't give it much thought, either. And that's why keeping up with the figures is so important. XD

That's because Lavi joined the Order before Allen did. I think he was around 16, so when he meets Allen he's already 18.

The bit about the 14th dying 35 years ago was a translation error. It was saying that the 14th killed the other Noahs 35 years ago, not that the 14th was killed. Here (http://read.mangashare.com/D.Gray-man/chapter-187/page007.html).

Edited 2009-12-05 23:22 (UTC)

Oh, thank you! *edits* I suppose they're talking about the 14th in Mana's brother, right? Surely it was less than 24 years since Mana's brother died and he met with Allen. Damn, I need to learn how to read Japanese...

On a sidenote, I'm sick of calling him Mana's brother... We need a name! DDD:

I noticed that time gap aswell...
Are you sure that it was the 14th that used the heart 7000 years ago?

It turns out that it wasn't 24 years. ~~Probably.~~ But still! I doubt that Mana and his brother were able to escape the Earl for long...

Who else could it be? The manga -or rather, the scans I have- only refers to him as that guy. And it also says that after that, there were only 12 apostles left besides the Earl. Simple! Math is simple. :D

Prehaps Cross doesn't age because he is/was a magician like the Earl?

Yeah, he is a very ~~vain~~powerful sorcerer after all, huh? I'm sure he found a to stay young a pretty forever. XD

Damn, Cross, I miss you! You womanizer, you! DDD:

About the timeline for Allen, Hoshino's given out inconsistent info before. I'm sure she's ret-conned some things, but Gray Ark gives the official/retconned version of the timeline. Allen met Mana when he was 7, and Mana died when he was 10.

As for Allen's currect age, I could be wrong on this but I think Allen is probably 16. I don't think much time has passed in the current timeline since chapter 170, and in that chapter, Miranda was stated to now be 26. And when Allen was 15, Miranda was 25, so...

Anyway, that's an interesting theory! Although I don't believe we have any canon facts saying that the 14th was the heart wielder or if he was even around at that time. I wonder if we will find out that the 14th was also around in the distant past. It'd make sense if he was, but would lead to a lot more questions, too.

Now, I know we can only guess at the 14th's motives for now (despite what he said in the latest chapter - we don't know the reason why he wants what he revealed to be his aim, or if he's lying about something) but we could speculate that the reason the 14th passed his memories on to Allen the way he did was because he needed the memory of his then-host, [insert name here] Walker to be carried on for some reason. I'm sure we'll find out eventually if that's true or false.

But I think that in light of the most recent chapter, there's another option too. Maybe transferring directly was the only way the 14th could have passed on his memory. If you look at one of Hoshino's previous works, Continue, the Earl there was said to move deliberately from body to body - but not reincarnating. Assuming that the same goes for the Earl in DGM, if the 14th is the same sort of thing as the Earl, it would be natural for him to do the same. Maybe they can't reincarnate like the other Noahs do. Or, possibly...perhaps the Earl once taught the 14th the method for choosing to move to a specific hosts.

Hmm... I see.

Peharps my theory regarding the Walker brothers is a bit too romantic ;; I was thinking that maybe Mana's brother just wanted to kill the Noahs because the 14th was making him do so. It's far more probable that Mana's brother suppressed his Noah (just like Tyki, and now Allen) but in the end the Noah just took over. We still don't know if you can actually elude the Noah memories.

My theory's still a possibility, though! Because Mana's brother ~~ugh I'm so sick of calling him that. Need name NAO. orz~~ said that he would come back to him. Besides, I've been think... there weren't any pianos around 7000 thousand years ago, right? If Hoshino wants to keep some sense into that, the memories of the player should belong to Mana's brother instead.

That's interesting, too! Problem is that we don't know if the 14th's memories actually were passed on or not since the beginning. That's why I said that "for some mysterious reason" the 14th had reincarnated into Mana's brother, because we don't really know if there were any hosts for the 14th before that.

The 14th seems quite a tricky character, too, because in the Earl's flashbacks he seems very sweet and caring. But the Earl gets all worked up when he sees those images and hears his voice. Surely he lied to all of his fellow ~~siblings~~Noahs about his plan to become the Earl himself. Probably he also lied to Mana's brother, too, saying that if he cooperated with him in killing the Earl, he would let him be with Mana again?

Facts! We need more facts!

I seem to remember Rouvilier saying that there he had a person related to the 14/Mana... does anybody else remember that? I want to say that it's the body of Mana's brother but I suck at theories.

Yes! It was a rather old man, he said. But at that time we thought that Allen was merely the player and not the 14th himself.

But now that Allen is the 14th, maybe we can see if the body means something.

Actually I doubt that the Fourteenth was the one who used the Innocence to defeat the Earl.

In Japanese it states that "the maker of the cube (the cube = Innocence, not the Heart) fought the Millennium Earl and defeated him, however the world still got destroyed in the end". I kinda find it hard that a Noah was able to create the thing that destroys them.

What I'm really wondering about is what exactly is the role of Mana in all this (he's definitely got a bigger role than that of Allen's foster parent). ~~As well as Cross's age~~. And since the Earl's name is "Adam", does that mean there's an "Eve" as well?

By the way, IEatManga's scanlations for D.Gray-Man (especially for chapter 187) tend to be full of mistakes so I wouldn't use their translations.

Hmm. But doesn't it also say that after the Earl defeated THAT GUY there were only twelve apostles left? Besides the Earl himself, I mean. I need to learn how to read Japanese ASAP.

Yeah, but the 14th actually does want the Earl dead, doesn't he?

Perhaps there have been too many parallels between the Earl and Mana in the latest chapters. It makes me wonder, as well...

An Eve seems like the only logical explanation for repopulating the world, although it would get even more complicated. ;;

Thanks for the advice. :D

I don't remember where I heard/read this but I remember something about the Fourteenth not being a "real" Noah. As in, he's a Noah, but not counted in the family (probably because he betrayed them?). BUT, I'm not sure if this is right or not.

I haven't seen the raw for chapter 189 so I'm not sure if that line about the Fourteenth wanting to become the Earl is right or not.

For some reason I keep thinking that the first Fourteenth was in Mana's brother, but I'm not sure why. In any case, I'd like to know WHY the Fourteenth wants to become the Earl (if that line is correct)...

Oh, well. Whenever you gain access to the raw could you please verify that line about the 14th wanting to become the Earl? Pretty please? D: *puppy dog eyes*

If the first 14th had been the one in Mana's brother then I think it should also prove the theory that the 14th Noah was actually born later. We'd still have left that guy that fought the Earl 7000 years ago, though.

Some questions:
1.After the Earl killed THAT GUY, the remaining 12 Apostels aided him. So 12 plus the Earl himself are 13 Noahs, but why are there only 12 in the picture here? http://pics.livejournal.com/are_late/pic/00009b3t Where is the 13th? O.o *maybe Hoshino-san was too lazy XD*

2.I don't think that THAT GUY who used the Heart 7000 years ago was the 14th himself. First it was mentioned that the 14th killed all the other Noahs, but about the other one was just said that he was defeated by the Earl and that the REMAINING Noahs became the ancestors and blah blah, which means the haven't been killed. Then why should the Earl repeat his fault two times, the first 7000 years ago *if the 14th is really THAT GUY from milleniums ago who used the Heart* and then AGAIN 35 years ago? Didn't the Earl realize that it was the same Noah? So I think the 14th and the other guy are two completely different persons, and maybe the older guy is the creator of Innocence and not the 14th. Second, I remember reading that the 14th's birth in the Noah family was totally unexpected, and that he shouldn't actually exist. So I think he appeared around the time Mana's brother was born, and that he trully decieved the Earl with his "nice and brotherly carring" attitude as you stated, because the Earl thought "Yes! A new family member! <3", let his guard down and ended up having the rest of the family killed.

3.Check this out: http://forums.mangafox.com/showthread.php?t=117041 What is this emblem that Mana, Tykki and Road share? Are they related? Maybe Tykki and Mana, cuz Wisely said about Tykki "He looks alot like him", so he either meant Mana *cuz Tykki really looks like the younger Mana, especially his hairstyle* or the 14th/Mana's brother, since he shares the same blood with Mana. So yup, I'm pretty sure there is more into Mana, than just being Allen's foster father and the 14th's brother.

4.I think the 14th/Mana's brother lied when he promised Cross to come back to Mana, since Mana ain't immortal, and by the time the 14th starts taking over Allen, Mana is since long dead. But then again I think Mana's Brother *hell I need a name too XD* trully fullfiled his promise, since he joined Mana again, when Allen first met his foster father. So in my opinion this promise wasn't made by the 14th, but by Mana's brother, which leads me to another theory: I think Allen or at least his good side, has a part of Mana's Brother's memories or even himself in it, meaning loving Mana that much and so on and so on. But after Mana died, his brother's memories inside of Allen start to get corrupted by the 14th's ones. I trully believe the 14th and Mana's brother had completely different personalities and goals, *Mana's brother wanting to get rid of his noah cells to live a happy life with Mana after and the 14th to be the new Earl for whatever*, so they "joined powers" cuz both their goals needed the Earl dead.

Now I think that after the 14th and Mana's brother with him died, that Mana just roamed around doing whatever he was doing. Now for how long: first the 14th killed the Noahs 35 years ago, but wasn't killed by that time too, and it was stated by Cross I think, that he and Mana lived a hell of a life playing hide and seek with the Earl, after his failed assassination attempt. Now either he lived until Allen was born to implant his memories into him *cuz how could he implant them into a being that hasn't even been born yet?* or it doesn't work that way with the Noah memories, and since all humans have Noah gens in them, he didn't need to wait and survive until Allen was born and died before his birth, which means either Mana was alone the time after Allen's birth until he met him *in the first case* or for even longer, since the 14th/his brother died long before.

Omg Allen really is 17 now?*squeal* And about Cross' age: I think he should be either 40-45 years old, or else he uses magic and is way older! Which I kind of don't want to believe T___T

something else: The Earl *in the latest chapter* said he was fooled by Allen, and thought he was the Player, but no, Allen is the 14th himself. So who is the Player? I think Cross is it. I mean why should the 14th/Mana's brother entrust a stranger all that information?

1) kanda killed one of the noah(that LOVES sweets) during the fight when they are in the ark.

and for the rest, let hoshino sensei explain it for herself?
it's kinda messy to figure out. ahaha.

1) Yeah, Kanda killed Skin Bolic in the ark. They are now looking for Wrath's next host.

2) Good theory! XD But why the hell would a Noah be born 7000 years late?~~And how exactly are Noahs born? ;;~~ And, if he had been born late and inside Mana's brother, where did his memories come from? And more importantly, why does want to become the Earl and kill all ~~of his family~~the Noahs?

That's inconsistent, yes. It says that the Earl "defeated" the guy. Perhaps it was the 14th and the Earl didn't kill him because he was his brother, after all. Then the 14th ran away/escaped plotting his revenge(?) and then he finally came back 7000 years later inside Mana's brother? And he was all "Missed you, dear bro! ♥" when in reality he was just waiting for the precise moment to kill them all off and finally fulfill his wish of becoming the Earl? OMG too much speculation. XD

3)Yeah, I had already seen that. There's something about the Walker brothers and the Noah family. And lately, there's been just too many parallels between Mana/his brother and the Earl/14th. OR, it could be Hoshino just playing around. XD Who knows?

4)Exactly! I just needed to establish the difference between the actual 14th and Mana's brother. I actually thought that the original 14th's memories were long lost, and the memories implanted on Allen were those of Mana's younger brother seeking his revenge against the Noah family for not letting him be with his brother. Chapter 189 proved me wrong.

I don't think Mana and his brother were able to escape the Earl for long. I think he died, but that he left the responsibility of implanting his/the 14th's memories to someone else? And then Mana spent all that time looking for his brother's/the 14th's unknown host (a.k.a. Allen)?

Yes, if my calculations are right, he is! *squeals back* And Lavi should be 20 by now... They're growing so fats, those boys. ;_; I don't know why, but the latter seems far more probable. XD

If we already have the 14th in the flesh, why would we need a player? ._. Although, there's still an unknown character that was also connected to the 14th/Mana's brother. A rather old man, or so Malcolm said.

1) Aww thanks! I was just wondering why was there one missing. Thought it could be another Noah-traitor XD

2) I totally have no clue! Man, Hoshino-san trully loves to torture our minds! XD I still wonder why he wants to become the Earl and what this "Third Side of the war" is. O_o I think Cross maybe part of that Third Side though...How does he know so much?!!
Oh I like your speculation! It makes some sense to me now^^ I think the Earl could trully have welcomed him back, cuz from what I've seen in the latest chapter, he kind of wants the family to be complete right? (wanting even Allen/the 14th to leave the Order, join them and never come back)...

I'm so curious to know right now! Can't wait for the next chapter! Does anyone know when it will get released? TwT

4) Hun Hun! Though I doubt that Mana was indeed searching for his brother's host after his sibling died. Cross said that Mana kind of "lost it" afterwards, and I think he didn't even know that his brother choose to implant his memories into someone else, in order to reincarnate. Though maybe I'm wrong, since why the hell would Mana teach a 7-10 year old child a secret code, and more important HOW did he know that code? Allen said that Mana and him invented this code, but in my opinion Mana was the one pulling the strings and teaching Allen the symbols and not just improvising them on the spot. Omg that is getting confusing @.@

Lavi should be 20? *squeals again in return* Oh hawtness! *___* I miss Lavi T__T

An old man? what? wait, when did Malcolm said that? O__O I think I missed something! Well I'm actually wondering too, why would we need a player, since we already have the 14th, but according to the Earl's reaction in the latest chapter, it seems like the 14th and his Player are two different persons! And not that the Player will eventually become the 14th! Gah! *headache* I hope that this OLD MAN ain't Cross XD

No, it ain't Cross. XD Back when Malcolm first appeared and sent Link loose on Allen's back he was saying that the 14th had left some people behind, people that knew something about what he had been doing. One of those was Cross, of course. Mana, too, but there was also an old man I'm looking for the exact page on the manga. Will get back to you on that one. whose name remains unknown and seems to be under the protection of the church. I think he leaked some info on the 14th's doings and the Walkers, as well...

oho! O__o
now that gets intersting! You don't think that Zhu *Kanda's Mugen's maker... that old man anyway XD* is said old man right? O___o holy crap! I just can't wait for the next issue! I want to know so badly TTwTT

oh I'll search myself for the page^^ thank you anyway!~ X3

That would be a lot easier. XD Buuut, we need to keep up with the facts! If we don't, when Hoshino finally reveals all, ~~which, for some reason, I strongly doubt that will EVER happen~~which I doubt will be anytime soon, we won't get the picture. ._.

woot? she just didn't draw the missing noah, cuz kanda killed skin boric? ouw man! I thought that there was another Noah traitor TwT It would be more interesting neh? >w>

Ah!I can't wait for her to explain and answer all these questions! I'm so eager and excited! >w

I think the Earl thought Allen had just been given the Player ability--the 14th's powers--and thought the 14th himself was still dead. We've known Allen is the 14th ever since Cross told him everything about the 14th and Mana. The Earl didn't know about that; all he had to go on was that Allen had the ability to work the ark.

1.) Well,I don't think that it said anything about the original 14th wanting to kill the Earl,unless I missed something .-., and that Mana's Brother/14th was the first noah to want to kill the earl.And that 'that guy' the Earl references to is compeletly separate from the 14th.
2.)I also think that the 14th has a better reason for wanting to kill the Earl and take over his position(like he wants to stop the prodution on akuma/the was in general...but I also like thinking that 14ths also a good guy, but thats just me..)
3.)Also I don't think that the 14th being nice was fake...although I also like to believe that the Earl and the 14th were banging,so once again,that's just me...Oh,and the one manga translations are awful(even though thats usually the site I go too >>) So the whole 12-13 noah thing is probly a mistranslation,or it could mean 12 without the Earl and the 14th. And I believe that manga has its own time,and with my math I just don't touch that shit,I think it's a good policy.

1. I was quite surprised that almost everybody seems to disagree with that. I thought that it was only logical that it had been the 14th, 7000 thousand years ago, that rebelled against the first disciple (a.k.a. the Earl), because after that there had been only 12 disciples left besides the Earl himself. There are some pretty interesting theories about the 14th Noah being born later or by mistake. ^^

2. I used to think that as well, but now I'm not entirely sure ;; Although it does get more interesting now that there seem to be some sort of ulterior motive behind the 14th's character.

2. Translation errors be damned! Banging? XD I call it brotherly love, myself. But anyways! I guess the manga does have its own time, it's just that I love connecting every little dot Hoshino-sensei leaves hanging in the air. 8D

.1) I like to think that the 14ths a darling little mistake/failure...althought thats not intirely relavent,
1)but regardless i kinda doubt a noah from any time period would be able to use innocence, and it said 'that guy' tried to defeat the earl using the heart, so yeah.
2)And I actually have a logical reason for thinking that the 14th is a good guy, amazingly. Would Cross really side with someone who wants to end the world? If there's no world there's no women for Cross to have sex with o-0
2.2) Little dots hanging in the air bug the shit out of me to no end >< they're why I stopped reading 'girl got game' ;-;

The Real Reason For my Reply) You're the first person to respond to my darling little crack pairing and ily for it xD

Hmm, I was under the impression that the 14th only incarnated the once -- i.e., there was no 14th before the one of 35 years ago. And when Wisely says, "there were thirteen Noahs that appeared," he was including the Earl himself, who is "the first apostle." After all, the Earl is also a Noah. Just a really long-lived one.

So there has only been one 14th, and he needed to specifically imprint someone else with his memories; the normal Noahs don't pick their successors, they just automatically reincarnate (although it's possible for them to "receive memory damage" that delays the reincarnation). The 14th having to take some sort of action to make sure the same happened for him makes it pretty obvious that he wasn't a normal Noah.

Plus, there's the fact that he has always been referred to as simply "the 14th." If there had been more than one, I think it would have been specified more clearly, with either "the most recent 14th" or "[Name], the 14th."

Also, on Allen's age, I think in chapter 187 the date was given as December 24th? I.E., the day before Allen's 16th birthday. The changes in his appearance are due to the art style's evolution and improvement since the beginning of the manga. My personal interpretation is that Allen has been with the Order for almost a year, having probably joined in the January-March area of the manga's current year.

Really? But then why did the Earl say that after THAT GUY had used the innocence to fight him the remaining 12 had become his aid? He is positively excluding himself from that number. And what about the word he used; "remaining"? Translation error? ~~Again? Orz..~~

That's true, but they really don't talk much about the 14th, do they? That's kind of taboo to them isn't it? We can't be completely sure until Hoshino-sensei spills the beans.

It seems such a long to me. XD Also! It may be Hoshino's style improving over the years, but I still think that she just decided to throw some muscle into Allen's figure. Not that I'm complaining. :D

I would want to see the original Japanese phrasing to be sure, but what I, personally, think what the Earl meant is that after he defeated "that guy," the remaining 12 Noah, i.e., other than the Earl himself, became the ancestors of modern humanity. And what he's basically saying is that he himself didn't, her, help repopulate the Earth (thank goodness for small favors). And Wisely also said that "we have the memories of the 2nd to 13th apostle," and with the Earl having already been established as the 1st apostle... I suppose the "remaining" line might also be a translation error... and it might also be that you're right, I have no idea. But this is my interpretation for the moment. xD;;;

Given that the Earl started bawling his eyes out when he and Road mentioned the thing with the 14th, yeah, it probably is pretty taboo to talk about. xD Not that anyone but the Earl, Road, and Wisely know the full details of what went on there anyway.

Also definitely not complaining about Allen actually looking fifteen (instead of, like, 12, which is how he looked to me before xD)! As far as age goes, Lenalee's hair is a pretty good indicator. Given that everything from the beginning to when she lost it was... well, my guess is 4-6 months, which seems about right to me -- and now her hair's only chin length, which indicates to me it's been another 4-6 months since her fight with the level 3, guesstimating by how quickly my own hair grows. x3

There were thirteen other Noahs who appeared besides the first disciple

I think there are 13 Noahs including the Earl. Notice how Wisely said that they inherited the memories of the 2nd-13th Noahs.

one of those Noahs (also called the Fourteenth) rebelled against the Earl and used the "Heart" to fight him. Nevertheless, the Earl defeated him and the remaining twelve apostles became the ancestors of modern humanity.

No mention of the 14th being the one that uses the heart.(raw just said "That guy") And he was not defeated - the Earl was. IEatManga's translations for 187 and 188 are full of errors.

Yes, so it seems. It thought that the 14th being "that guy" was the most logical thing ever. Everyone else seems to disagree, though. XD

Those crops are from Mangafox, where I've also read all DGM chapters. They're also filled with incongruencies. I really do need to learn Japanese. ;;

all i know that Tyki got a feelings to Allen. to see the way he treat Allen so kindly. i wonder when wisely said that Tyki's form are similar to 14th.
Argggg!!!

can't wait the next chapter

~~late message is late ;_; oh and warning LJ n00b in action~~

From your discussion with

123antidote, I would have something to add and/or say my thoughts on them.

Fist of all, until now I thought that the 14th and Mana's brother ~~or as I like to make fun of him: XXX Walker 8D~~ were one person, and not entirely different entities ;_;

since why the hell would Mana teach a 7-10 year old child a secret code, and more important HOW did he know that code? Allen said that Mana and him invented this code, but in my opinion Mana was the one pulling the strings and teaching Allen the symbols and not just improvising them on the spot.

Allen may say that he and Mana invented the code together, but he was a child back then and I think we know how easy it is to fool a child into thinking that something was made by him/her especially when they want to impress their parents.

Regarding the incident 35 years ago, from what I understood, Wisely said that Noah received "memory damage" from the 14th. But, what I, or everyone else for that matter, don't know is when did the 14th die? Was he murdered after he killed the last generation of Noah, except Road and the Earl, or did he flee and was found out by the Earl later and killed in a fit of rage by him? The question still lingers...

And talking about timelines~~math taim with approximation~~, in chapter 188's flashback of the 14th a.k.a Mana's brother, he looked older than a teen ._. , I'd say in his late teens/early 20s(basically 19+ in my POV). That was before the massacre 35 years ago. Lets assume he said that to soften the Earl, and then deal the finishing blow a little while later(that can also count as a psychological blow as well...). Also, from chapter 166, it looked as if the age-gap between Mana and his brother wouldn't be larger that 2 years. Doing the math, 20 years, give or take, plus 30 years, that would make Mana when he died over 50 years old. (poor guy....). With this, we can guesstimate Mana's age when he found Allen. I, at first, though he would be in his middle 30s T_T being a clown and all that jazz.

And now talking about the timeline when Allen came to the Order. I thought ~~thanks to the anime~~ that it MUST have been at least a year and a half since Allen came to the Order. But, when I read the manga... that is a different story altogether. When Allen meet Lavi, it was snowing and in Germany. When the HQ moved to central, it said that two months had passes and it was still snowing. Between Allen and Lavi's meeting at the end of November and the attack on HQ, I would say, about 2 to 3 weeks passed thus being already December. And I would say that the current chapter would be in the new year, making Allen turn another year and Lavi still be 18 years old -,- . Get what I want to say? I would need to make a timeline for this... it's really confusing....

Hello there! Better late than never. 8D And no worries, we're both newbies here ;;

Really? What gave you that impression? Since this (http://pics.livejournal.com/are_late/pic/00003x27), I knew that I had to differentiate the 14th Noah from Mana's little brother. Or rather, XXX Walker. XD A lot of people refer simply to "the 14th", and most of the time I'm not entirely sure if they are talking about Mana's brother or the actual Noah.

About the code... I'm sure that Mana and his brother made up that code. Maybe even when they were kids, who knows? To play and stuff... I used to do that a lot. Anyways! I'm almost positive that the code was something that solely Mana and his brother could understand, because as we read in the Ark arc (my, that sounds strange. XD) the Noahs didn't know about it. When the Earl is playing the musician's song and downloading the old Ark into the black Ark, what's on the background as he plays are the actual notes, not the code Timcampy had Allen to play.

Well, he killed everyone excepting the Earl & Road and he ran away with Mana for God knows how long. I don't think it was too long before he was killed, though... the Earl with all those akumas wouldn't be that slow in punishing treachery.

About Mana, I thought that he had died when he was about 40. In the flashback the 14th looks a lot like Tyki to me, and Tyki's 26 right now, so... XD We can't be really sure about Mana's age, though, and how much time passed between his brother was killed and he found Allen.

Actually, I think that Lavi already turned 19. Following a similar theory... when Lavi and Allen met it was snowing, right? So it probably was around January-February. It surely was after December since Allen said that he was already around 15. When they move to the new HQ it's raining, so it's fall. Since Lavi's birthday is in August, it means that he already turned 19 and Allen's about to turn 16 right now. I guess... XD

Believe me, I'd thought that at least two years had passed since Allen had joined the Order. But now I stand corrected. XD Those all-nighters of catching up with all DGM chapters must have messed with my brain... orz

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hrm

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