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dgray_man2008-08-13 10:21 pm
lovely-fatima.livejournal.com) wrote in dgray_man2008-08-13 10:21 pm
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Theories About Cross
Hello. I'm new to the comm, even though I've been reading the manga for the past two years. Normally, I'd lurk for a while before posting, but my brain has been spinning with the events of the past few chapters and none of my friends and coworkers reads this. So, here are some theories I've been tossing around concerning our mysterious General Cross Marian.
I have a theory:
Cross mentions that for one thing to survive, something else must be sacrificed. It's a theme that runs throughout the manga, actually. The Akuma themselves are created on much the same principle with the distraught loved one being forced to sacrifice the beloved who asked the Earl to bring them back. Komui has essentially sacrificed his own life and freedom to be with Lenalee at the Order. Lavi has had to sacrifice the bonds of love and friendship in order to become one of the impartial Bookmen. Suman Dark becomes one of the Fallen because he sacrifices the lives of other Exorcists and betrays his own Innocence in order to save his life and that of his daughter. These are only a few of many more such cases.
I believe that ever since Levoissier showed up at the old HQ, Cross has seen the writing on the wall as it concerns Allen. He needs to convey vital information to his apprentice about his being the 14th and what that means in the war ahead but he's stymied by the constant presence of Link and the order forbidding him to speak with Allen. Therefore, Cross sets a plan in motion. He agrees to go with Levoissier and tell him everything he knows in exchange for the chance to speak with Allen. Cross is *quite* aware, at this point, that this will almost certainly result in a death sentence for Allen. Thus, he implements stage two of his plan.
Cross is a frightfully canny and clever old snake. And I mean OLD. He might *look* young, but I think he's just as old as Millennie himself. Not only that! He was able to ressurrect a dead exorcist (Maria) and gain command of her Innocence through the use of Magic. Now, I could be wrong, but the only other person in the resurrection business and who is said to use Magic is The Earl--yet another thing that links the two of them together. Furthermore, Cross somehow managed to change or transform Akuma and bend them to *his* will rather than that of the Earl. More than all this, he created Timcampy, a golem like no other and whose abilities we've only glimpsed throughout the course of the story.
Either in person or quite possibly through Timcampy, I believe Cross was witness to the 14th's betrayal of the Noah, his attempt on the Earl's life, and his subsequent flight with his brother Mana in tow. There's something to wrap your brain around! It's speculation, of course, but we *know* that Timcampy was there as a witness to Mana's "adoption" of the young Allen (if that was ever his name to begin with...), and thereby Cross was as well. We also know that Timcampy and Cross have a certain connection. The golem is ginormous when we first see it perched on Cross' hat in that Chapter 3 flashback, but in the very beginning and throughout much of the early storyline, he's teeny enough to be swallowed by a cat! Throughout the whole "where the hell is General Cross?" trek across Europe and Asia towards Edo, Timcampy gets bigger the closer in proximity he gets to Cross' location. Tim reappears inside the Arc when Cross makes his magnificent entrance and just happens to hold the "music" necessary for Allen to control the Arc and save his friends--music written in the language Allen made up with Mana. In fact, the shadow of the 14th that Allen sees in the mirror says that Timcampy is his, even though we've been lead to believe that the golem belongs to Cross! So many significant things and events where Timcampy is involved!
Back to that plan Cross had. Knowing the extent of Levoissier's zeal and knowing how vital both Allen and the 14th are to this war, Cross understands that for Allen to survive, something else has to be sacrificed. That something else is himself--or rather, the "character", Cross Marion. In addition to the theme of sacrifice, there is also the idea that these events are some sort of drama or play being acted out upon a stage. Here's what I think happened: Before Allen even sets foot in that room, Cross is planning to sacrifice himself. So much is made of his feeding his cigarette to Timcampy that I believe there is some significance to part of that act. Perhaps it is his way of relaying instructions? Or maybe it is his way of providing himself a bit of "life insurance" given the bloody act he's about to commit, preserving something of himself that can be resurrected. Who knows? He accomplishes his goal of telling Allen the truth about his connection to Mana and the 14th, and retreats to his room. The guards are dealt with, and here's where I think Cross has an accomplice--possibly Maria, but more probably someone else. Komui? Bookman, perhaps? I'm even willing to speculate that Link may know *far* more than he allows Levoissier to suspect and that HE is the one who aids Cross with the distraction of the guards. At any rate, Cross waits patiently in his room until he hears the knock of said accomplice on the door giving the signal that the guards are asleep and therefore won't notice the noise of a gunshot. He takes up Judgement and shoots himself in the head, staggering back to rip the curtain, falling against the glass and slumping onto the window seat.
Of course he's not dead. The *body* of the player known as Cross Marian might be bleeding and lifeless, but The Man is still very much alive and waiting for the light of morning when the effects of his actions can come to fruition. As soon as the guards have a chance to see the bloody "corpse" of Cross Marian, TIMCAMPY springs into action with the instructions he was given. He takes the body to where Maria waits, and under her concealment, Cross Marian exits, stage left. Timcampy remains to be found by Allen with nothing but a message from The Man saying that the golem had always belonged to Allen from the start. And incidentally, the time-skip is important. Levoissier was all set to have Allen called out as a heretic and a devil before the entire assembly of Exorcists. He was damn near gleeful at the prospect that the dangerous threat would be eliminated with an implied torture and execution. And yet, the next thing we see is Allen, in uniform, on a mission. True, Link is still stuck to him like white on rice, but the salient point is that Allen has survived. Cross' sacrifice ploy worked.
So to answer a few lingering questions: Why is Judgement left behind? Probably because The Player-Formerly-Known-As-Cross doesn't need to use Innocence anymore. He may not even need Maria anymore. He's got Magic, remember, and as the Skulls informed us all during the Arc battle, there are some things that Innocence is useless against. But what about the half-mask, shown broken and bloody and left behind? [And as a side note: Has anyone else noticed how similar the markings of Cross' mask are with Mana's Clown make up and Allen's cursed eye?] Some speculate that it is the source of his Magic, but I say that it is only a tool of said Magic. The mask was a symbol of the role The Man--whoever he really might be--was playing at that moment. He acted out the role of a General of the Order until such time as he was forced to relinquish that role and take on another one. Perhaps this new role is related to the hidden side of the war that made Bookman so nervous to hear of? Whatever the facts may be, I am certain that we, the readers, have not seen the last of The Player-Formerly-Known-As-Cross. He's out there, and I think he'll be back to help Allen in the next stage of his journey.
Your thoughts?aside from the fact that this post was entirely too long...
I have a theory:
Cross mentions that for one thing to survive, something else must be sacrificed. It's a theme that runs throughout the manga, actually. The Akuma themselves are created on much the same principle with the distraught loved one being forced to sacrifice the beloved who asked the Earl to bring them back. Komui has essentially sacrificed his own life and freedom to be with Lenalee at the Order. Lavi has had to sacrifice the bonds of love and friendship in order to become one of the impartial Bookmen. Suman Dark becomes one of the Fallen because he sacrifices the lives of other Exorcists and betrays his own Innocence in order to save his life and that of his daughter. These are only a few of many more such cases.
I believe that ever since Levoissier showed up at the old HQ, Cross has seen the writing on the wall as it concerns Allen. He needs to convey vital information to his apprentice about his being the 14th and what that means in the war ahead but he's stymied by the constant presence of Link and the order forbidding him to speak with Allen. Therefore, Cross sets a plan in motion. He agrees to go with Levoissier and tell him everything he knows in exchange for the chance to speak with Allen. Cross is *quite* aware, at this point, that this will almost certainly result in a death sentence for Allen. Thus, he implements stage two of his plan.
Cross is a frightfully canny and clever old snake. And I mean OLD. He might *look* young, but I think he's just as old as Millennie himself. Not only that! He was able to ressurrect a dead exorcist (Maria) and gain command of her Innocence through the use of Magic. Now, I could be wrong, but the only other person in the resurrection business and who is said to use Magic is The Earl--yet another thing that links the two of them together. Furthermore, Cross somehow managed to change or transform Akuma and bend them to *his* will rather than that of the Earl. More than all this, he created Timcampy, a golem like no other and whose abilities we've only glimpsed throughout the course of the story.
Either in person or quite possibly through Timcampy, I believe Cross was witness to the 14th's betrayal of the Noah, his attempt on the Earl's life, and his subsequent flight with his brother Mana in tow. There's something to wrap your brain around! It's speculation, of course, but we *know* that Timcampy was there as a witness to Mana's "adoption" of the young Allen (if that was ever his name to begin with...), and thereby Cross was as well. We also know that Timcampy and Cross have a certain connection. The golem is ginormous when we first see it perched on Cross' hat in that Chapter 3 flashback, but in the very beginning and throughout much of the early storyline, he's teeny enough to be swallowed by a cat! Throughout the whole "where the hell is General Cross?" trek across Europe and Asia towards Edo, Timcampy gets bigger the closer in proximity he gets to Cross' location. Tim reappears inside the Arc when Cross makes his magnificent entrance and just happens to hold the "music" necessary for Allen to control the Arc and save his friends--music written in the language Allen made up with Mana. In fact, the shadow of the 14th that Allen sees in the mirror says that Timcampy is his, even though we've been lead to believe that the golem belongs to Cross! So many significant things and events where Timcampy is involved!
Back to that plan Cross had. Knowing the extent of Levoissier's zeal and knowing how vital both Allen and the 14th are to this war, Cross understands that for Allen to survive, something else has to be sacrificed. That something else is himself--or rather, the "character", Cross Marion. In addition to the theme of sacrifice, there is also the idea that these events are some sort of drama or play being acted out upon a stage. Here's what I think happened: Before Allen even sets foot in that room, Cross is planning to sacrifice himself. So much is made of his feeding his cigarette to Timcampy that I believe there is some significance to part of that act. Perhaps it is his way of relaying instructions? Or maybe it is his way of providing himself a bit of "life insurance" given the bloody act he's about to commit, preserving something of himself that can be resurrected. Who knows? He accomplishes his goal of telling Allen the truth about his connection to Mana and the 14th, and retreats to his room. The guards are dealt with, and here's where I think Cross has an accomplice--possibly Maria, but more probably someone else. Komui? Bookman, perhaps? I'm even willing to speculate that Link may know *far* more than he allows Levoissier to suspect and that HE is the one who aids Cross with the distraction of the guards. At any rate, Cross waits patiently in his room until he hears the knock of said accomplice on the door giving the signal that the guards are asleep and therefore won't notice the noise of a gunshot. He takes up Judgement and shoots himself in the head, staggering back to rip the curtain, falling against the glass and slumping onto the window seat.
Of course he's not dead. The *body* of the player known as Cross Marian might be bleeding and lifeless, but The Man is still very much alive and waiting for the light of morning when the effects of his actions can come to fruition. As soon as the guards have a chance to see the bloody "corpse" of Cross Marian, TIMCAMPY springs into action with the instructions he was given. He takes the body to where Maria waits, and under her concealment, Cross Marian exits, stage left. Timcampy remains to be found by Allen with nothing but a message from The Man saying that the golem had always belonged to Allen from the start. And incidentally, the time-skip is important. Levoissier was all set to have Allen called out as a heretic and a devil before the entire assembly of Exorcists. He was damn near gleeful at the prospect that the dangerous threat would be eliminated with an implied torture and execution. And yet, the next thing we see is Allen, in uniform, on a mission. True, Link is still stuck to him like white on rice, but the salient point is that Allen has survived. Cross' sacrifice ploy worked.
So to answer a few lingering questions: Why is Judgement left behind? Probably because The Player-Formerly-Known-As-Cross doesn't need to use Innocence anymore. He may not even need Maria anymore. He's got Magic, remember, and as the Skulls informed us all during the Arc battle, there are some things that Innocence is useless against. But what about the half-mask, shown broken and bloody and left behind? [And as a side note: Has anyone else noticed how similar the markings of Cross' mask are with Mana's Clown make up and Allen's cursed eye?] Some speculate that it is the source of his Magic, but I say that it is only a tool of said Magic. The mask was a symbol of the role The Man--whoever he really might be--was playing at that moment. He acted out the role of a General of the Order until such time as he was forced to relinquish that role and take on another one. Perhaps this new role is related to the hidden side of the war that made Bookman so nervous to hear of? Whatever the facts may be, I am certain that we, the readers, have not seen the last of The Player-Formerly-Known-As-Cross. He's out there, and I think he'll be back to help Allen in the next stage of his journey.
Your thoughts?
no subject
I don't have that much to add to this really except that I also noticed the striking similarity between the mask Cross has and the clown appearance Mana has been shown to have in recent chapters. The clown connections running between Cross, Mana and Allen really do interest me heavily
this is no reflection on my own long lasting jester bias in the slightest... *cough*But a friend and I also had a theory that Cross is not the most honest of people and he could possibly have more to share later (because like hell he's dead, that's just silly X3;;) or admittance that not everything he's said with Levoissier listening is 100% true.
Remains to be seen, I suppose. I'm so looking forward to these plot points being expanded on, though ♥
Again, lovely to see theories being brought up into discussion -^_^-
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I have to agree with that theory. Cross tells the truth, but tells it slant--particularly because he knows there are many people listening. I have to wonder whether or not his "hidden side of the war" comment was directed at Allen or at the *Bookmen*. And yeah. Killing him outright would be silly. He's FAR more connected to everything than anyone knows.
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Personally, I
am desperately hopingthink Cross may be lying about Mana and the 14th in general. I'm very skeptical about the 14th being Mana's brother because again there is so much in the "clown" theme of things. Again, Cross' mask, Allen's general jester-esque look, Mana's work as a clown, Mana being the one who cursed Allen, taught him the score and (possibly, as I recall, I'd need to double check) being the "voice" Allen hears when his monicle evolves.Once more, my friend and I's tentative theory is still lingering on Mana being the 14th after all and Cross spinning bullshit about there being a brother because compared to all the little hints being dropped along the way this brother spoiler still feels so suddenly dropped into the mix that it doesn't seem to fit, to me at least.
I'd like to think that it's easier to hear your adopted dad was the 14th's brother than actually flat out being the 14th and thus either a request or a choice made to/by Cross so that it wouldn't be so hard on Allen and keep it still partly secret from the Order.
...but that's all just theory and most likely completely off the mark now, but that's how we figured it XD;;;
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I could buy that Cross is much older than people would expect because of what was omitted in the fanbook. But also, if we're tying in some stuff with the anime, it looks like Cloud and Tiedoll certainly know a lot more about the situation as well, and I'd guess in that case more than Sokaro since he looked to Cloud.
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I, too, have noticed the covering of eyes and the things that are concealed within. In fact, one of the things that pissed me off no end about the anime was the way they treated Lavi's "special" eye when he was looking for the key amidst all of Jasdevi's illusions. I remember that moment in the manga when he lifted the eye-patch and there seemed to be this beam of light that erupted into the darkness--I nearly fell off my chair!
Then again, I've often thought that Lavi could pass for Cross' little brother if you squint hard enough...
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I'm convinced Mana is the 14th and that Cross is his brother. If Allen got the ability to control the ark from Mana, and the fact that Allen becomes a target for the Earl because he knew Mana then there wouldn't be a point to transfer those powers to a kid. I think Mana and Cross were brothers which is why Cross know all he does and they decided to transfer those powers to Allen. Remember that Cross has only had the mission to destroy the akuma egg and deal with the 14th for like 5 years or so. Allen looked like he was younger than 10 when we see flashbacks of him with Mana when they meet. But yet Cross sounded like he had known the 14th for quite a while, his whole "Mana was never the same after transfering those powers" comment indicates that he was very close to Mana. Then there's the whole showing up at Mana's grave to pick up Allen. Though I think Allen was chosen because of his arm.
That whole Lavi is Cross' son makes sense. Bookman knew Cross had the ability to convert akuma to his side, he knows more about Cross and the whole situation. The way Cross is with women definitely seems like he won't commit which makes me think he's afraid of losing a woman he loves, so I get the feeling that he has already lost a woman he loved and that in order to not lose his son, he gives him away to someone he trusts. Cross and Lavi both love gorgeous women, they're carefree and they both have special right eyes. The similarities between Lavi and Cross are too striking to ignore now that I think about it.
no subject
Also, Cross being Mana's brother makes sense too. It would certainly explain his comments about the 14th choosing a kid instead of some "good for nothing" guy. I like the idea of Lavi being Cross' son. One of the reasons why I like Hoshino as a writer is that she takes time off to research and then comes back to weave fantastic stuff into the plot. There *are* too many similarities between Lavi and Cross. I can't wait to see where that goes.
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But didn't Hoshino just say that the 14th was Mana's younger brother in the manga?
Though, as well, obviously he's known Mana forever.
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Levoissier, as we have come to understand through his actions and through the flashbacks from Lenalee and Komui, doesn't exactly have the cleanest hands even though he's supposedly the Pope's chosen mouthpiece. He's willing to stoop to murder and unethical experimentation in order to further his cause. Were I in Cross' shoes, I wouldn't tell the absolute truth to him either!
Oh, and for the record: I LOVE your icon! *hee*
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And thank you! It was from a very, very, very old RP.
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*ahem*
Your theory does make loads of sense; I had actually thrown around the idea of an accomplice around, too and the fact that the mask was left behind as a message, much like what you say about the "hidden side of the war" comment being meant for Bookman (which, really, sounds about right to me).
I'd just to like to add a few more things to what you said: Cross told Allen "not to die too soon this time around"... So, there was another time. And was he talking to the 14th? That could imply that they did have a very close relationship. And, as we all know, Cross is a thorn on the Earl's side... so, could there be more to it than meets the eye? Could Cross have been with the 14th ever since he tried to kill the Earl? Oh and that comment to Allen that "he should have picked a worthless kid" or something along those lines also sounds that he knew about the passing of memories before-hand, doesn't it? And this might sound stupid, but I kinda had a feeling Timcanpy was important ever since I saw him flying around on the first episode (yes, people, I started with the anime and then went to read the manga... You can kill me now).
Has anyone else noticed how similar the markings of Cross' mask are with Mana's Clown make up and Allen's cursed eye? --- I did right around these latest chapters and was like: "Why the hell does Cross have a similar design to Allen's but ON THE OTHER EYE?"
And you should bring discussion here whenever you feel like talking about DGM! It is much appreciated ^_^
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I think Bookman knocked on Cross' door, since he did make a point of directing that one comment towards Bookman, and it just seemed like a secret password between them. Plus Bookman could easily knock the guards out with his needles.
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I'd love it if it were Bookman who knocked out the guards and knocked on Cross' door. I think he's finding it more and more difficult to remain impartial.
Speaking of Bookman: ever notice how when the Noah come up against Lavi and Bookman in battle, they're genuinely astonished to find the Bookmen on the side of the Order??? Kinda makes you wonder what connection the Bookmen have with the Noah. After all, if Lavi's as young as he is, but he's in his 49th "persona", then we have to wonder how old *is* he? And can they communicate mind to mind, or am I just misinterpreting the "thought balloon"?
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There is usually an invincible character in manga/anime, and I think Cross is that one in DGM :) So I'm all for the theory that he didn't get killed and somehow he had it all planned out. True, Cross could very well be closely connected to the Noahs & Earl... in fact, he might even be one of the Noahs XD Not sure why, but that thought suddenly popped into my head when I was reading your post... if he witnessed how the 14th & Mana fled from the Noah family and is closely related to them, one possibility's that he's actually one of the Noahs (but I guess no one knew about it?). That would kind of explain how he and the 14th met. I'm just very curious about the rest of the Noahs, since only Tyki and Road seemed to have bigger roles to play.
And as for Maria, it's also worth wondering why Cross had resurrected her instead of someone else (other than the fact that she's probably a beautiful lady), and how old she actually is. She could possibly be picked because of her abilities... (then again, does Innocence stay within the body after one dies O.o) and there's the thing about the odd way her arm is jointed (something about ball-ish-jointed, I believe?) Since she's a possibly a beautiful lady, it's puzzling why her eyes have to be covered with the sash (I have a crack theory that her enemy dug her eyes out or something after her death, and Cross made her cover it up not to spoil the view ^^; On the other hand, maybe her eyes does contain something powerful.)
Whoops, long comment :'D
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And Maria...ah, Maria! Let's think about this for a sec. Cross is an alcoholic and a womanizer, and yet he carries around the re-animated corpse of another Exorcist who uses her Innocence at his command. I emphasize that because, to me, that's one of the freakiest, most horrifying aspects of Cross' character. Perhaps Cross drinks and whores because he lost the one woman who meant everything to him? Or maybe he tried to resurrect her, but realized his Magic could only go so far? She's technically "alive" enough to serve as a host for the Innocence, but everything else about her is dead. It is said that the eyes are the windows to the truth, to the soul. Maybe Cross covers her eyes because he can't bear to see soulless eyes staring out of his lover's face. But then again, it's her whole *head* that's covered, everything but her mouth. What's she hiding under those bandages?
no subject
When Allen was in the piano room to stop the download wasn't he told that there was a two player requirement. Well at the time I thought maybe the 14th was two people but nobody knew that not even the Earl. Mana and Cross could've been the 14th together but Mana was found by the Earl. Cross can do things that nobody else can so if he was the second player needed and he transferred his "Noah memories" to Timcampy and Allen had Mana's memories then those two complete the set.
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Golden wings...big teeth...little horns...a cross covering its "face"...
That creature looks an awful lot like Tiimcampy, don't it?
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I also like to think of cross as the 14th's confidante as he'd be the perfect person for the 14th to ally upon his betrayal for the reasons mentioned prior..And yeah i always thought the mask helped his spells along but never saw it as a symbol..interesting concept..and Link.that's entirely plausible..It's smart of you to come up with that..and I think cross has some business to settle to set up the curtain call of the hidden side to the war thus his disappearing act rather than just to save Allen..so basically, i'm comfortable with the theory on certain points and impressed at some..but at some points, it justs seems off the way to me at least../=