On Kanda's Name

[symbolism-egg.livejournal.com]

I was reading the latest chapter when I noticed a sort of pun that overjoyed my inner language geek. The currently available scanlation doesn’t convey it, so I thought I’d share it here for potential discussion.

This has to do with the meaning of Kanda’s name.



On page 11 (page 12 on Mangastream), the top and central panels read something like:

The malignant weapons, the “Akuma”
The “Millennium Earl”
“Innocence”
“Exorcists”
The reason we were born,
And the reason we live—
It’s a world like a mitoshiro, where everything has been prepared.

I leave mitoshiro untranslated because there’s no direct English equivalent, and it’s the word I want to discuss. A mitoshiro is a rice paddy where rice is grown to be offered to the gods. It’s written 御戸代 here, although different Kanji can be used. 神田 (read shinden or kanda) is listed as a synonym. This meaning is also explained under the Japanese Wiki entry for 神田 (kanda).

So, essentially, Kanda and Alma are like the rice grown in order to be offered to the gods, and Kanda is directly comparing the research facility to the rice paddy. I was wondering why Kanda had a Japanese name, and I think this answers my question. For all that she has Americans named Jasdero and Skinn, and Chinese named Komui and Linalee, Hoshino gets some of her names very, very right.

Comments

[aorin107.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Lee is definitely a Han family name but otherwise, their names are still rather confusing. As you said, Komui's name can be passed of as some rare minority enthnic group name but I'm not sure if Lenalee's name fit anywhere. Or perhaps, their names are not romanized from the Mandarin pinyin and its based on some other dialect, like Cantonese or Hokkien (same for Bak Chang, which I believe is Cantonese).

Still, I really don't expect Hoshino to realise these naming conventions but it's rather funny that Bak Chang is named correctly while Komui and Lenalee's names are just strange (unless she was listening to Teresa Teng and assumed all Chinese has English names or something =.=)

[fantasia0829.livejournal.com]

It's possible, but I don't think so. Komui and Lenalee's names are really much too... un-Chinese, and I can't think of any dialect that would result in their names. Another thing about Chinese naming conventions is that only 1 or 2 characters are used, excluding their family names. So a Chinese person's full name is usually only 2 or 3 characters, as opposed to the 4 that Komui and Lenalee have. Of course, ethnic minority would have more characters for their names, but we've already agreed that Komui and Lenalee have a Han family name.

Really? Bak's name is romanised from Cantonese? It doesn't sound Cantonese to me at all, his name, though his family name could pass for a Cantonese family name. It'd be Chan though, instead of the Chang you typed.

Ha ha, the Teresa Teng theory sounds possible. XDDD

[aorin107.livejournal.com]

True, their surname indicated they are Han Chinese but for the love of me, I still can't figure out their names no matter how hard I try. Also, my biggest gripe is actually the placing of their names. Chinese surnames always comes before their own names and while Hoshino got it right for Rikei and Rohfa... Komui Lee, Lenalee Lee and Bak Chang ends up wrong (let's not get to Sammo Han Won, I still can't decide which is his surname or name). If anything, those sound like their English names rather than actual Chinese names.

Just a theory, the location of the Asia Branch was never revealed in the manga, though I do recall in the anime, it was mentioned that Allen, Lavi and Lenalee were in Guangzhou (Canton) during the Suman arc. It doesn't necessarily mean Bak is Cantonese or his name is read in Cantonese since there are also Hakka, Teochew and other Han subgroups living around that area. But it does sound Cantonese to me, for instance, 白 (Bai) is read as Bak in Cantonese. (I still like how the Taiwanese version writes it as 莫, even if it makes no sense at all)

[fantasia0829.livejournal.com]

The surname thing is easily explained, considering it's Japan. They have been too influenced by Western naming conventions, so sometimes they put their names before their family names. Think Ayumi Hamasaki. But sometimes they prefer to have their family names before their names. Think Utada Hikaru. I'm guessing that Hoshino decided on the characters' names arrangement based on a whim. XDDD

It's true that 白 is pronounced Bak in Cantonese, but that would render his surname kinda... weird. Chan is technically not a Cantonese surname; it would have to be Can instead. But then again, HK stars romanise their surnames to Chan sometimes...

Seriously? I'm chalking all of these inconsistencies to Hoshino's incorrect knowledge whim. XDDD

sorry for intruding ^^;

[kaizoku-shinobi.livejournal.com]

While I doubt this is actually the case, I'd think that considering that the Order is a European organization in the 19th century, they'd require important figures/people who interact with Westerners a lot to switch to Western names and name order. Thinking like that, it'd make sense that Komui took an English (sounding) name and that Lenalee probably was given hers wen she first came to the order. That'd also explain Bak's name order; his name can be pronounced but Westerners wouldn't understand the reverse name order.

However, it seems most likely to me that when Hoshino took the characters' names from their respective sources, she thought they sounded nice/creative and used them. She probably wouldn't know about "Howard Link" but I think it's kinda obvious that "Noise Marie" isn't a common name, much less a German one. Though, I've seen really "creative" names in both Japanese and English media and I'd have to admit that the names/order aren't that bad.

Re: sorry for intruding ^^;

[fantasia0829.livejournal.com]

Well, it's possible, but I don't think so. For one, Komui is not an English name at all, and if they the Order wanted are romanised names that can be pronounced in English, any Chinese name can be romanised; Komui did not have to change his name in the sense that you mentioned. Secondly, if the Order did indeed want all names to be romanised, then Chaoji would have to change his name.

I think Hoshino probably, like you said, just picked names that sounded good.

Re: sorry for intruding ^^;

[kaizoku-shinobi.livejournal.com]

Argh, I completely forgot about Chaoji (why is he even there?). And Komui is the great mystery, I think that Hoshino just made it up.

Hmm, I guess your reasoning makes more sense. It's just that I go to an international school, and even though the Caucasian teachers can pronounce the Chinese students' names, the students take on English names for better communication and to integrate into western culture more easily. (Or perhaps they really didn't like how horribly western people pronounce Chinese names. Names like "Kaixi" or "Cennan" are almost always pronounced wrong and it gets really annoying. As a Chinese myself I really don't like the look of romanised Chinese names, but that's just me.)

But then again, this is a manga. I've yet to see such deep thought about something like the name of a non-major character from a shounen manga. XD

[symbolism-egg.livejournal.com]

She writes it Ayumi Hamasaki when it's in English, but in the Japanese it's still "Hamasaki Ayumi." She's simply adapting it to the English naming conventions when writing in Roman letters--Japan hasn't been influenced by Western naming conventions in terms of name order (although there are a hell of a lot of odd baby names being chosen in Japan these days), and the surname still comes first.

I think Hoshino is treating Komui Lee and Lenalee Lee as foreign names, since they're not Japanese, and therefore writing them in the Western name order--even though the characters are from East Asia, and their surnames should come first.

Is 白 Bak used alone as a first name in Cantonese? If I look at it from the perspective of Korean, it looks like he has two last names.

Yes, I think Hoshino's just doing whatever she feels like over there. XD

[fantasia0829.livejournal.com]

Well, the arrangement of names and surnames mostly depends on where the stars are marketing themselves. It's one of those 'when in Rome, do as the Romans do' type of thing, I suppose.

You could use 白 Bak as a first name in whatever Chinese dialect you want. I mean, it's a completely valid name, and there is a very famous Chinese poet from the Tang Dynasty who is named simply 白 (I'm referring to 李白, if you want to know). However, 白 is also a surname for some Chinese.

Ha ha, yeah, definitely.

[symbolism-egg.livejournal.com]

Exactly. In Japanese, though, it's still in the traditional order.

Cool, that's what I wanted to know. :) And suddenly I remember Haku (白) from Naruto and how his name always seemed Chinese (but with the Japanese character reading).

[aorin107.livejournal.com]

I suppose I can look pass the naming order, considering the situation. But as I've mentioned in another post, while they might be able to handwave it in Western countries, they are probably going get some raised eyebrows when they are back in China. The problem is, I don't see why Hoshino can't stick to the normal Chinese naming convention, she did it for Rikei and Rohfa, so why not the same for the other Chinese characters.

Still, apart from Rohfa and Rikei, she wrote the rest in katakana, so that probably explains the stranger Chinese names and naming order :3

And yes, as fantasia0829 said, 白 qualifies both as a surname and name in Chinese and the best example is the Tang poet, Li Bai (李白) (aka the genius drunken poet XD). For a long while, I wondered why did the Taiwanese translators used 莫 instead, until I checked the kanji with a Japanese dictionary, and realised it is read as Baku in Japanese. So, er... yeah, one mystery solved, I guess XD

(Completely unrelated, but I do like Chinese characters: 莫 (Bak) and 芙 (Fou) especially since they share a certain same stroke. I hope the Taiwanese translators do the same for the rest of the Chang clan, so it'll be like some kind family naming tradition XD)

[aorin107.livejournal.com]

Yeah it's true. Though, I much prefer the proper Asian name placing order, like what she did for Rikei and Rohfa (see, Hoshino does know the naming conventions XD). But as symbolism_egg said, Ayumi Hamasaki only uses the Western convention when she writes in roman letters, otherwise she sticks to the original form. When it comes down to it, in Asian countries, they'll stick to the original placing order or their names will be completely messed up.

I've checked the fanbook and I realise that apart from Rohfa and Rikei, the rest of the Chinese characters had their names written in katakana, hence the Western naming convention. I can handwave Komui and Lenalee since they spend a good deal of time in Europe and their names were... un-Chinese to begin with. But Bak, Chaozii's, etc names are going to raise a few eyebrows in China. For sure, if I meet a Chinese guy who writes his name as Bak Chang, I'll just assume Bak is his surname (or look at him really strangely if he tells me otherwise).

Yeah, technically, if he were Cantonese, Chang would be read as Cheung instead. I'm not going to try and figure out which Han subgroup he is, since he could be, well, anything or even a mix of two subgroups XD Also, I double checked the word 莫 with a Japanese dictionary, and the hiragana I get is 'Baku'... That's probably why the Taiwanese used that instead of 白.

I think she does know the proper naming conventions, but to make them extra special, she just... well, plays around with it (meshing words or deleting a few letters) XD

[sakanagi.livejournal.com]

Lenalee's name makes more sense when you know that when she was first designed, she wasn't going to be a Chinese character. Originally, she was half Japanese and half some other (unnamed) nationality - but Hoshino didn't change her name along with her nationality.

[aorin107.livejournal.com]

Okay, I can't say much for the unnamed nationality but even so, Lenalee doesn't exactly sound like a Japanese name. Honestly, I'm at my wits end about her name... all in all, it just sounds like an English name.

[sakanagi.livejournal.com]

It doesn't sound like a genuine English name to me either, but maybe it's Hoshino's idea of one? Who knows. It's possible it was initially supposed to be an ambiguously foreign name, but on the other hand, that doesn't explain why Hoshino didn't change it to something Chinese later on.

[aorin107.livejournal.com]

She's probably picking names out of a hat, sometimes she gets it right, sometimes it just ends up as strange XD