On the Nature of Innocence

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Guys, I've been wondering. About new chapter's cover. Yes, the one with gay Allen standing over what could be interpreted as Alma Karma suffering from some severe mayonnaise intoxication. Or something. It feels like it's too specific, too precise not to have a deeper meaning.
And I'm dead serious.

As someone will know, it clearly represents Archangel Michael, who is mostly “viewed as the field commander of the Army of God”. Still, I don't think it's right to take it too literally and draw Allen-Michael parallelisms because
1) if Alma really needs to be disposed of, and we don't know yet, it would be very, very anti-climatic and lame if it was Allen and not Kanda the one doing it, IMHO. Also, I doubt Alma will die anytime soon and come on, that's the first thing that comes to mind watching the cover, it's just too obvious and banal. As it's banal if it simply implies that Allen will be the Exorcists' leader someday; like we didn't know that already from the first page of the first chapter.
2) what if it's more metaphorical, as in, “yeah, archangels do have some relevance to the plot and stuff and you should know by now that I like to draw weird foreshadowing covers, BUT I'm putting Allen here above some purple thing resembling Alma just to mess up with you”?

Assuming that Hoshino took inspiration mostly from Christian/Catholic iconography and religious texts, I did some “angelologic” (I didn't even know such a thing existed!) research.

Apparently there are seven different archangels, but only four of them (Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel) are truly important and close to God. Which is funny if you think that the main characters of DGM are four.
What is even funnier, is that Gabriel (name meaning: “strength of God”, “God's mighty”) is also referred as “left hand of God”. UH. Rings any bell?
Fun (but prolly coincidental) fact: some “occult systems associate each archangel with one of the traditional seven "luminaries" — the Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn”. Gabriel's should be the Moon, that curiously appears more than usual in the chapters of Allen's supposed death. Look at this or even at this, for example. It was his innocence that saved him, after all…

So, what if Innocence are actually angels and archangels? That would explain a lot about their impartial, inhuman behavior, too, since they follow divine justice, don't have free will, and just obey God's orders.

From what I gathered, I think the other three possible combinations could be:
• Lavi-Uriel (Uriel: “Light of God”, who's often associated with fire; is smart and wise; is depicted carrying a freaking book or a papyrus scroll representing wisdom; and “serves as the eyes of God” in Milton's Paradise Lost. Needless to point out that, according to Hoshino herself, Lavi's mysterious eye is relevant to the plot, for reason yet unknown. DUH.
Speaking of light, and if my idea is correct, this page could turn out pretty ironic and amusing.)
• Raphael-Kanda (Raphael: “God Heal” or “God who Heals”, who carries a staff -as “that person”?-, and heals a BLIND man who was NOT born blind but became so at the beginning or so of the Book of Tobit. Raphael also helps a woman who wants to die because her husbands always get killed by this demon.
Putting aside the fact that Kanda constantly regenerates through a process we still don't know shit about after a whole damn arc… Do you remember last chapter when Kanda healed Marie, who just HAPPENS to be the only unusual blind character in the whole manga, thanks to the blood dripping from his left hand, which just HAPPENS to be the same hand from where his Innocence came through? YEAH. I guess it was more a mix of Innocence+WhateverTheyDidToMakeKandaRegenerate than anything, but I think you get my point.)
• Michael-Lenalee (yeah, angels don't have gender. “Michael” means “Who is like God?”. I didn't read his page throughout, but he also carries a sword or a staff –as we can see from the fabulous chapter cover–, performs God's kindness and… Well, he's almost always portrayed as in the cover: standing over the devil, ready to kill him with his weapon, but never killing him; the attention is drawn to the humiliation he's giving him by stepping onto him. Lenalee kills her enemies by stomping on them.
I know I don't have any strong evidence on this one yet, but it would be ironic as hell if Lenalee were somehow linked to a character like Michael, so loved by God and close to Him. I know that the leader's role best suits Allen, but this is about Innocence, and I just don't think she can be left out in something like this. Besides, in Islam it's Gabriel the chief of the four favoured archangels, so it's not exactly like he's a nobody, and Hoshino can just change some things if she wants.
Also, Lenalee makes the most awesome fights ever. Period.)

ALL of these archangels are named, present at the same time (<=pretty rare) and doing stuff for God in the Book of Enoch, who is no less than Noah's great-grandfather. WHAT A HAPPY COINCIDENCE. I didn't read the whole thing because it's huge, but it should be about these (rebel) fallen angels who came down on earth and mated with human women, generating these Nephilim evil hybrids that are, like, giant and eat people and remind me a little of Akuma or Fallens like Suman, I couldn't decide (and didn't read enough to get a better idea). Then God got angry because everything sucked or something and Noah was told to build his ark because he was good. I think.

… Yeah, I should probably get back to it. And I will. But still, I think it's kind of interesting how all this may be connected.

Fun fact number 2: I'm pretty sure Satanel/Satana/Lucifer/whatever himself was an archangel before starting his own rebellion against God because he wanted to become Earl God, or something like that, bringing with himself many other angels. I don't know how, but I think it could be related to our lovely DGM Noah. If Noah (in general) used to be angels that could explain the hatred for Innocence, which seems to hate them back passionately. I should read more about this, but I don't have the time Dx

(Besides, IF these particular Innocence are “archangels”, it could at least partially explain why Lenalee's and Allen's – and possibly Kanda's, but I'm not sure – Innocence acted the way they did, saving their own conformers and themselves, without any of them being the Heart: these Innocence -archangels- ARE more important and stronger than the others -simple angels- and won't fall that easily, but it doesn't seem so yet mostly because the synchronization with their own users isn't strong enough as of now.)

What do you think? Am I imagining things? Some things may seem a little forced, I can't really tell, but others… 
I know it's strange and probably unhealthy I'm reading so much in a cross-dressing Allen, but I thought I'd share.

I apologize for any mistakes, it's my first English post ever!

Comments

[lynnyanne.livejournal.com]

WAHHHH i love allegories.

You make such interesting points. I didn't think of the four as G-d's archangels, but it's definitely plausible, especially the way you present it.
This was some serious introspection. It was really interesting to read.
Your English was fine. :D

Also, Lucifer = most definitely archangel. Aspired to be greater than G-d, fell from heaven, etc., as exemplified in some verse of Isaiah that goes something along the lines of "How far have you fallen, son of the morning".

Edit: Looked it up properly. The verse is Isaiah 14:12-13, and it's

How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of G-d..."

It's a lesson against extreme conceit in humans, but also popularly believed to be the backstory of Satan.

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I'm glad to hear that someone else thinks it's possible. It was a coincidence, really, but now I can't stop thinking about other hints that could support this theory.

Yeah, then he's an archangel. And also pretty powerful, too, isn't he? Other archangels surely knew him…
I'm still not sure whether he could be related to Earl, the 14th, or both, but I definitively think he is, somehow.

[pywen.livejournal.com]

0o0... I... I never thought a single second of my life that Allen and co. could be the Hosts of possible Archangels. Your analysis makes sense tbh. Thanks for pointing this out!

and no, your english wasn't bad at all. It was perfect!

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Neither did I! I just went wiking and almost squealed when I read about the left hand of God. Now the more I think about it the more it makes sense…
Oh well, time will show, hopefully.

Thank you!

[hakasha.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Such wonderfully interesting things you say♥

I'm not sure I agree with you on the Innocence=angels+archangels thing (I don't really have a reason not to, just... it's a gut feeling XD) but I certainly agree that it's very possible that Hoshino DID indeed use everything you mentioned as inspiration.... I think I'd love DGM heaps more if indeed she had, because, damn, that's a lot of 'hidden' references embedded deep in the characters' very core idea.



As for who Allen might be representing, it feels like I've heard everything from the Hindu goddess of divine retribution Kali Ma to Archangel Michael now. XD but yeah, it sounds... interesting.

While i think the whole look is somehow related to the 14th, that doesn't mean Hoshino didn't mean for the Michael reference to be there. *___* (a possibility that makes me squee. Do I have a thing for simbology and religious references? yes I do.)

I think the monster thing is more likely an akuma than some representation of Alma, though. :/

As for Lucifer having been an archangel, I think I heard that too somewhere, so i think you're right, though I can't really remember the reason he rebelled/fell/whatever.
But yes, what you say about the Noah does make sense from that perspective. *nod*

I think it's more likely Hoshino just drew inspiration from the main concepts rather than actually use them, but not impossible or too far fetched, I guess. The Innocence fragments could be angels/archangels/somehow related to them. *nodnod*

Going for something more literal, I wonder what the staff could be? If the monster-thing is indeed an akuma, could it be some form of Innocence or anti-akuma weapon? That's kind of unlikely... :/

Yet what interests me more in this cover (apart from Allen's long hair XD) are the skulls. A necklace of them, and a bracelet, linked by a chain of... things that look like bones? >____> That has me rather interested to be hoonest, and I'm torn between thinking about it in a literal way and in a metaphorical way.... and I still don't really have a concrete idea what the whole thing might be or mean. :/

I really wonder if we can or can't make assumptions based on this cover. ggrrrmm, this uncertainty annnoys me.

/butts in

[venoso.livejournal.com]

from my, ahem, education. lucifer was one of God's "favourite" archangels; lucifer was beautiful, powerful, intelligent, and an absolute dear who loved God and God, being the creator and loving all his creatures, loved lucifer back. from growing up and not-so-epic studies of the Bible, i would get the impression that lucifer stood out; had a voice for himself amongst the rest of the archangels and was ... out there. why d'ya think the devil is considered to be all sorts of cunning and huhuhu to getting into man's desires? he wasn't a third-rate angel before Falling, that's what.

there are many theories as to why he fell (lol don't bite me if i'm sorta pulling at strings thx), but two very strong ones stand out. to me, anyway.

he grew jealous of God's creation - man - and refused to acknowledge them as "perfect" and thus never understood why God loved these "flawed creatures" so much. so he rebelled against God, brought in some angels who agreed with him remember lucifer was all charming and intelligent, very leader material, there was epic fight in Heaven, but the other archangels (lead by michael) threw them down into the abyss that we now refer to as Hell.

the other one bends more towards him growing greedy and wanting to be more powerful, more intelligent, more everything. and be like God - SUPERIOR than God! this rebelling in my Heaven, non! God had none of it and pretty much the same battle thing occurred and overthrew the angels that lucifer had gathered into Hell. and so they became demons and "the devil", respectively.

SORRYTHISISJUSTSOINTERESTING i couldn't help myself

Re: /butts in

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

he grew jealous of God's creation - man - and refused to acknowledge them as "perfect" and thus never understood why God loved these "flawed creatures" so much.

And maybe he decided to create a new “man”kind, like Akuma? He does seem pretty affectionate towards them… Or maybe he was just sending his message to Earl, I can't remember.
Still, this is more interesting than just “dur dur i wanna moar pauer”.

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Yeah, in fact I wasn't so certain at the beginning because that cover is admittedly weeeeird even for Hoshino and I didn't even like it. It was actually the “left hand of God” part that made me jump on my seat. It's just too much of a coincidence that the same exact words were used, don't you think? Why the voice couldn't just say “it was your Innocence” or something? Also, only blind character is friend with the most asocial character in the manga and gets healed by him. It's just so strange…

I'm pretty sure she put the major reference to Archangel Michael there (my hometown is “dedicated” to him and we have statues and pictures, so I know far too well how he looks like), but I don't exclude she added some other! :D That would be so cool of her! At first I thought it was more related to 14th, but then again, like you said it could be both.

I think the monster thing is more likely an akuma than some representation of Alma, though. (PIÙ PICCOLO:and yes, if Alma has to die, I'm totally rooting for Kanda being the one to do it. Allen may be involved in some way, but Kanda just HAS to be the one to do it. right?)

Yeah… I don't really know, it does have something of Alma's new character design and that's the common interpretation I saw, but if it was a simple akuma it would be actually better for my theory, so yeah xD Damn right. GO KANDA
Aaaaaaand, Allen clearly doesn't want to kill people and didn't kill anyone thus far, not even Noah, so if he just goes there and kill Kanda's former best friend… It just doesn't feel right o_o

Going for something more literal, I wonder what the staff could be? If the monster-thing is indeed an akuma, could it be some form of Innocence or anti-akuma weapon? That's kind of unlikely... :/

Hmmm, I've been wondering about that too. On a hand it could just be that Michael almost always wields this staff, but on the other…
Fact is, Michael's doesn't have any particular feature, and if it does it's a more normal cross (http://www.arcadiaclub.com/img/occu/lucifero_arcangelo_michele_schiaccia.JPG) on one extremity. He certainly is NOT associated with Virgin Mary (I suppose that statue represents Mary, right…?).
Gabriel, instead, IS, because he was the one who annunciated her she would conceive Jesus.
… I don't know, now I'm seeing symbolism everywhere, but it could be an explanation.

I don't know how to interpret the skulls. I really wish I could. I thought that maybe, just maybe, they could be a reference to the 14th, because in many other covers Allen has something representing Innocence (usually crosses) in his left hand and a skull in the other, which I always thought was related to 14th Noah, or maybe Mana. But more 14th (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/132/01/). This was the first (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/3/02/) (also, it's fun that his right side is the one covered even though his left eye is cursed… Right eye is also the one that seems to hurt Allen the most when he becomes 14th for the first time.)
OH HEY LOOK AT THIS (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/118/01/). There's a devil on the right side, an angel (I never noticed the wings before! I'm REALLY seeing things now!) on the left side, and the Innocence that looks like Earl's sword in the center, with possibly a clown that could be Allen on it.
… Anyway, about the chain. I've been thinking since chapter 184 that his Innocence and the 14th have been struggling, and that they actually influence each other. That could be why Allen's got the sword that looks just like the Earl's. The chain could represent the fact that 14th is apparently winning and ruling over the other, right now? After all, Allen did go away with Mana in 184, losing himself and leaving his Innocence behind.

GOD I HAD TO SPLIT THIS THING

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Another proof, maybe, could be this (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/116/08/):
Allen is dying and his scar begins changing (as it does when he plays the piano); the 14th quite obviously doesn't want to and steps slightly in. That's why Allen starts thinking very un-Allen things like “I want to live because I want to kill Noahs”. THEN, his Innocence apparently comes through: he remembers the part when he got it back, and the resolution that made that possible. Then he reaches 100%.
… Yeah, I definitively think that's what the chain is about.

Thank you for your comment, I just dismissed the chain because it first seemed usual weird gothic thing Hoshino likes to draw. Maybe not.

[sekitx2.livejournal.com]

When I saw the cover art other day I was (still am) a bit too WTF Hoshino (Allen crossed with the pope and a vodoo priest) to consider actual implications of it... excellent theory and well supported! I find it a little easier on one's sanity to just let the chapters unfold instead of hoping this or that theory is true of late. ^^*

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know it would be easier (and smarter, really) to simply read the manga and see where it leads, but the intricate plot is one of the reason why I love D.Gray-Man so much, and I love Hoshino for putting everywhere things that may or may not be hints. I make almost a theory per chapter and then talk about it with my sister, but this is one of the few that could actually be true xD

Thank you!

[123antidote.livejournal.com]

Wow! I didn't think Hoshino would use SO much symbolism at all! O__O I mean she sometimes puts hints *usually in the covers* for what will happen in the future, but didn't think she would connent everything through allegories to the Archangels!

Thank you so much for summing it all up!

First: yes! It would totally suck and be more than just plain LAME if Alma gets killed AGAIN within the next few chapters. Common! You don't awake someone to have him look like an Akuma and then kill him again! Well...anyway IF he's really to die again though, I agree that Kanda should be the one doing it. It just wouldn't feel right if someone else barged in *even if it waas Allen* and killed Alma. Would be totally humiliating for Alma and for Kanda in some way :/

About connecting Allen to Gabriel: I totally agree! The allegory with the left hand and the moon just can't be overseen!
Kanda-Raphael: Wow! He really heals a blind man? O_O Now that means A LOT! What troubles me though is the "he kills a woman who wants to die"... Even though think of the theory of Alma actually having "that woman's" brain as not that truthful, now I start to wonder again .__. Just Alma wanted to die, and if he is that woman, then her husband, "Kanda", gets killed continiously "by demons" *Akuma* and not only~ hmmmmm .__.

Lavi Uriel: that jsut speaks for itself neh? XD So yes, I'm sure Lavi CAN still see through his right eye, since in the Ark arc *against Debitto and Jasdero* his said it would be impossible finding the key using only his one eye, and proceeded to remove the eyepatch right? I'm sure something creepy is under it o_o Also as you said Uriel is often connected with fire. Lavi on the other hand can't only control fire but other seals *wind-seal and blahblah* as well. BUT he's mostly shown using fire *like against Rhode* plus the fire-red hair lol XD

Michael-Rinalle: THAT ould fit. Because I somehow always get this ironically strong feeling when Rinalee fights, that she's really humiliating the Akumas through attacking them from above and stomping on them.

Lucifer-Noah: Yeah I agree. Though he personally reminds me of the 14th. I mean he clearly stated he wants to become the Earl. We still don't know his true purposes, so maybe the Earl himself is connoted to Lucifer, and the 14th is something completely different *was there actually something like a "third party" in these Books? I really wonder ._.*

But seriously now! I can totally live with the fact the Innocences probably are simple angels and archangels. Don't forget that their "raw" form before synchronizing with anyone is this of a headless WINGED human-like being! That's proven in all those flashbacks with Kanda and Alma and the fight of Rinalee and Allen against the Level4, where Rinalee's innocence together with her blood took this winged-creature appearance v__v

Anyway, thank you again for taking your time to write it all down! I really love allegories and if there are so many in my favourite manga then just WOW! X3

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know! She draws so many weird things you just never know what you can trust to have actual meaning. I love her for this <3

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. Lame, lame, LAME. And Alma probably doesn't care about Allen… Besides this time Kanda would really kill Allen, and rightly so. It just doesn't feel right in so many ways.

Allen to Gabriel: Glad you agree! Also, while answering hakasa I saw other stuff that could support this theory: angel on the left side (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/118/01/), Virgin Mary (usually linked to Gabriel) on the cover page staff… I just see it everywhere now xD

Kanda-Raphael: yes he DOES. Come on, how many blind men are in D.Gray-Man that also happen to be friends with one the most asocial character ever? xD
DON'T READ THIS, I messed up! xD

Lavi-Uriel: definitively xD At the beginning I thought that he would be one of the first three, because Michael, Raphael and Gabriel are the only recognized by Catholic Church, and thought that the fourth could be Lenalee, but when I read the page…
Yeah, I know he can't only control fire, but, like. I don't know xD He surely likes it way more than the others. He's also the only character that I'd associate with fire, so.

Lenalee-Michael: you know what's really funny about this? That Lenalee gets to be the manliest of them all. (Uriel is more the intellectual type, which I like, but is not very “manly”; Raphael is associated with SPRING, and healing just seems more a feminine thing; Gabriel is often portrayed more like a woman and is associated with lilies and purity, for goodness' sake! XD)
XDDD I'm going to laugh SO hard if this comes true xD

Lucifer-Noah: my only problem with that is that… I don't know. Maybe, just maybe, I read that some believe that Lucifer and Satana are two distinct beings. So maybe one is 14th (and I'd say Lucifer. Because he does seems cold enough to be an angel. Also, maybe he was thrown out from Paradise because he DID make some sort of rebellion, then got accepted as a Noah –though he actually isn't one– and then regretted everything. Or simply wants to kill God off once and for all by his own terms or something. D:), and the other is Satana (come on, he's got those creepy horns!).
Still, I'm not so sure. Will definitively search about this third party in Books of Enoch, it could actually be a good idea!

headless WINGED human-like being

Oh, yeah, I forgot about this! I mean, they are headless, which could symbolize the fact that they do NOT have actual free will. The only Innocence with a head we've seen this far is this one (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/106/02-03/) at the center, which I assume is the actual Heart. It also appear on a pic with Allen and the Earl, but I can't seem to find it…

[123antidote.livejournal.com]

*ok this will be devided in three answers cuz now I realize my reply to you is way too long XD IM SORRY!!!*
[Part 1 of 3]

Yes I love her for that too! I mean knowing her, I always read the DGM chapters searching for hints on every single page! You never know with her~! XD

I actually wonder HOW strong exactly Alma is now :/ I mean he sure looks stronger than a Level 4 so Allen alone might not be able to kill him *I don't want him to die just yet tbh >____<*

Allen-Gabriel: Oh yes I see it now! This Mary on the left side is not to be overseen! And yes, she really is linked with Gabriel. Another thing on the same picture: have you noticed this demon on the right bottom corner? Ain't it similar to this one here (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/3/02/)? I mean the wolf-demon like face? I'm sure it represents evil. Plus it's kind of weird that Allen is holding the Cross with his left hand *the one for the akuma* and the other one is holding the skull. Maybe it means salvation is brought to the Akuma through God, and to the Humans through death? I don't know. Though on this specific picture there are more evil-signs than pure ones, PLUS the fact that Allen is looking at the "dark side", the skull, and not at the Cross, the good side .__. *ok I got carried away right now XD*

Kanda-Raphael: I TOTALLY agree with you on that! The only blind one in DGM is Marie *and Lavi maybe, but only from that one eye, but I don't really think that he can't see through it though* Also I checked it up, and Gabriel is the Patron of Medicin, the Blind people, INSANITY *rings a bell? All these Illusions?* and LOVERS *that woman? COMMON!!!* WOAH!! Great~ *Now I seriously will draw something about this all! Thanks for the inspiration! ILU!!! O3O*

Lavi-Uriel: Yes~ I agree with this too! His also the only character I could say his element is fire, also because his birthday is in July and he is a Leo, and Leo's a Zodiac of Fire right? Also Kanda is a Gemini so that could explain his "double" personality *him knowing about his "previous" self and all that stuff* That really makes me believe that Hoshino TRULY searched around A LOT before starting the series and drawing the characters~ Back to the Archangels: Uriel is one of the Angels of the Presence right? And if I've read correctly, these Angels of Presence revealed Lord's "mystery" about the purpose of life to the humans. Now for me this is HEAVILY linked to secret knowlegde and all that stuff only the Bookmen know about right? *man! You seriously made me check some things up! XD And I like it ;3*

[venoso.livejournal.com]

oh, italiana! buongiorno! sorry i had to check hur

not sure how plausible this is and how fast we should jump to conclusions about the origin of innocence itself, but this is some yummy connection you've made right here. ...it reminds me of the spin supernatural took in the last two seasons, ahem. archangels sup. it would make sense if what's actually "destroying" the demons are angels though, seeing how if a person like you and me tried to do so, the most we could do is exorcise it out of the body it has taken abode in. never actually destroying or vanquishing them. I HAVE YET TO HEAR SOMEONE HAS, SO.

i usually take most of hoshino's color covers with a grain of salt since she tends to draw things that may have nothing to do at all with the plot of the story. she just draws it because she feels like it, kind of thing. but i wouldn't dismiss the fact that she puts a bit of a hint here and there since she can't be straightforward on the plot for the sake of suspense and development towards it.

the interpretations of the archangels vs the respective exorcists makes a load of sense. for lenalee-michael, the fact that she is "closest" with the black order, dear and loved by most, could create a link between her and the archangel, who is closest to God. but... yeah, it's a tiny wee bit wonky. the one for kanda-raphael YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT 8| though- ffffff. that's one scary (and awesome) coincidence, about the blind man.

not too sure about the one of lucifer. it's a bit shaky. noah are noah, hoshino stated that much - and, albeit not evil in the Bible, she tweaked it around to work with her story. what is interesting! is that lucifer and satan are considered as being two different beings; one out of a pagan myth and the other out of christian beliefs.
However, some contemporary exorcists and theologians such as Father Jose Antonio Fortea and Father Amorth in their experience and based on Biblical interpretations assert that Lucifer and Satan are different beings.[Jose [Fortea] Cucurull, Summa Daemoniaca 2004]

of course, it runs a little ergh with the time dgm was first released and all, but it may be an interesting point if we bring up the fact that there's the earl and then the fourteenth having their own debacle going on amidst the noah vs exorcists. again, nothing can be taken too literal with hoshino since this is ~fiction~, but if she were going for some symbolism, this throws in an interesting perspective. both satan and lucifer (being as one, whatever) are allured to wanting to overthrow God with their own power and build an empire higher to God's.

this is all i got now, but man you're going to make me google through a lot of things now arghh. interesting topic to bring in!

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

No, wait, anche tu? XD

Yeah, I also like the fact that neither Innocence can actually kill demons off alone, as of now. It's like Innocence (whatever it may be) and humans don't actually like each other, but have to collaborate for the greater good. Maybe that's a consequence of the last Sacred War, but I don't know.

Well, she did draw very foreshadowing covers about the 14th. This one (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/83/01/) was from chapter 83, and 14th actually appeared for the first time only in chapter 131. That's almost FIFTY chapters before. This cover just seems very peculiar, to me.

is that lucifer and satan are considered as being two different beings; one out of a pagan myth and the other out of christian beliefs.

So that's true! I thought I read it but wasn't so sure. I'll paste the part I wrote in another comment: “Lucifer-Noah: my only problem with that is that… I don't know. Maybe, just maybe, I read that some believe that Lucifer and Satana are two distinct beings. So maybe one is 14th (and I'd say Lucifer. Because he does seems cold enough to be an angel. Also, maybe he was thrown out from Paradise because he DID make some sort of rebellion, then got accepted as a Noah –though he actually isn't one– and then regretted everything. Or simply wants to kill God off once and for all by his own terms or something. D:), and the other is Satana (come on, he's got those creepy horns!).
Still, I'm not so sure. Will definitively search about this third party in Books of Enoch, it could actually be a good idea!”
Actually I think Noah ARE Noah, something different, but 14th… I'm not that sure.

I'm so glad it actually makes some sense to other people! I think I'm going to google something else, too, especially about Michael, as well as read those freaking books about the Flood.

[hiriko.livejournal.com]

Whoa, this was really (I MEAN REALLY) interesting to read.

Thank you for pointing this out!

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Glad to hear that, thank you! Now I'm dying to know if it's true Dx

[medicago.livejournal.com]

This is . . . a really great theory. Though I don't quite agree with you on the 'Innocence' being the angels themselves, I do agree with you on how Hoshino might have used these angels as reference to the DGM four. Lenalee's is a bit strange, but it's possible (though I don't think she quite focuses on their humiliation as much as getting the hell rid of them). :|a Though I wonder what that makes the Fourteenth. Another fallen?

And I also wonder what that makes the Third exorcists. Or are they just random plot ideas with no reference made up by the mangaka? The plot thickens . . .

Thank you for showing this! (loves allegories like no one's business)

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Lenalee's strange, but about the humiliation I was talking more about how the image visually appear, not how she feels about it. Er, I don't know if that's comprehensible xD

About the Fourteenth, yeah, by now I'm pretty much sure he's a fallen angel. Even better, he could be Lucifer, who was an archangel before falling. Besides Lucifer (supposedly the 14th) and Satana (supposedly the Earl) are sometimes considered as two different beings, and, well.
“So maybe one is 14th (and I'd say Lucifer. Because he does seems cold enough to be an angel. Also, maybe he was thrown out from Paradise because he DID make some sort of rebellion, then got accepted as a Noah –though he actually isn't one– and then regretted everything. Or simply wants to kill God off once and for all by his own terms or something. D:), and the other is Satana (come on, he's got those creepy horns!).
Still, I'm not so sure. Will definitively search about this third party in Books of Enoch, it could actually be a good idea!
Actually I think Noah ARE Noah, something different, but 14th… I'm not that sure.”

And discussing with venoso we thought that maybe, if the 14th is an archangel he could more easily recognize his own kind (archangels), and “that could mean that he already knew what Allen had. I think that's very, very possible, because if he couldn't kill the Earl 35 years ago as a normal Noah (or whatever he is), he does need some help. Maybe he also knows that (if my theory is right) some are stronger than other, if he was an archangel maybe he actually KNEW them personally, and so consciously choose the one that would best serve his plan and that was also available (Lenalee and Kanda were in the Order, and possibly their Innocences too, while Lavi didn't become an Exorcist until two years ago, probably thanks to some Bookman thing the 14th didn't have access to).
At the same time, if it is Gabriel, the others can't simply kill him… Would be pretty stupid to kill one of the strongest, if not the strongest of them all.”

Yeah, it's hardcore speculation, but it's fun, and it could actually make sense :D

Hmmm, right now I have no idea regarding the Thirds, they're too recent to the plot and I can't think of a cover that may foreshadow them thus far. I've got all of them in a folder, so, uh, I don't know :/ And you don't know how this pains my inner nerd, also because I wanted to include at least Link.
Should I ever come up with yet another crazy theory I'll tell you, though.

Thank you!

[tossino.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHA you have no idea how much I love the idea of the OT4 being "archangels"! XDD I dunno why I find it so amusing, but I do.

Anyway. This is an AWESOME theory. I love it. I would add some own thoughts, but I can't think of any, so this'll have to do.

But, despite that, thank you for this oh so lovely post and ilu. <3

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

Yeah, honestly I find it pretty amusing too. Because, like, Gabriel (Allen) is often portrayed as a woman and carries lilies and other very manly things while Raphael (Kanda) heals people and is associated with damn spring. It's Lenalee Michael who wears the pants.

COME ON THIS IS ALREADY CANON.

It's okay! I'm glad you liked this crazy idea. Thank you P:

[calen-greenleaf.livejournal.com]

Wow. I didn’t even think that much about the cover. I just thought Allen looked like the Fourteenth, stabbing an Alma-turned-Akuma (shallow, I know).

But I love your thoughts on Innocence being angels. After it was called “substance” for so long, I’ve wondered if it were more than that because in two instances it saved their users. The evolving could mean more power being manifested/synchronised. And maybe it could explain why the Innocence is appearing as wings all over the place in the recent chapters (maybe as the raw form of the angels?). Of course, it fits well—Innocence “angels” against Akuma “demons.”

I’m not sure where Lucifer fits in. He just a bishie fallen angel who hates God and I have little sympathy for him and his egotistical self. Nowhere is it said that he was an archangel (the Bible only names one archangel—Michael), and one must also remember the different angels—archangels, seraphim, cherubim (not the fat little cupid angles, XD), and the typical angel of death, guardian angel, and the messenger angels. Study on angels could get quite complicated…oh well, it’s fun. But to get back to Lucifer being the Earl, I’m dubious about that because the Earl’s true name is Adam. DGM’s Noah are drastically different from the Biblical Noah and his family...maybe there’s a mastermind greater than the Earl that hasn’t been mentioned? It’s “Exorcists against Noah,” but where would God fit in? Possibly the “physical” fight of Exorcists vs. Noah reflects the “spiritual” fight of “God vs. Satan”? I think I just opened another can of worms…

As for nephilim—the word actually isn’t in the Bible. It’s just “sons of God” (not capitalised, to differentiate it from Jesus, I guess). I’m still iffy on nephilim being Akuma or Fallen (because Akuma are the Earl’s power and one becomes a fallen when he’s betrayed the Innocence and the nephilim are the ones who left God), but thinking about this, my guess is that the nephilim could be the Noah. If I want to try to tie the Bible and DGM together, I could say the nepihlim were one to manipulate the Biblical account of the Noah to suit their ways, because if you think about it, Noah abilities are different forms of manipulation. The Earl manipulate emotions, Wisely manipulate minds, etc. So maybe they took on the name of “Noah.” It might explain why they don’t die but instead find hosts to live in.

..all right, that was way too long and probably only made partial sense. But you threw out something interesting and I couldn’t resist thinking about it.

~Cal

P.S. Your English is fine! :)

[youffie-17.livejournal.com]

I think the purple distracted pretty much everyone at first, really.

Well, even though Innocences are not angels, I doubt they are simple substance. If they were they'd be easier to control.
Yes, the wings are suspect, especially because they've appeared “wearing” them in all of their raw forms – with Lenalee (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/153/13/), behind Allen (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/184/002/) (the blood – I think), in some chapter (http://www.onemanga.com/D.Gray-Man/106/02-03/) covers (http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/youffie17/035.jpg), and now all over the place in Kanda's arc. They were missing only in Fallen!Suman, if I recall correctly, but I'm not even sure we can call that a “raw form”.

About Lucifer… I know that according to Bible only Michael is an archangel, but if even strict Catholic Church recognizes Raphael and Gabriel too as such, I think we can be more relaxed about this. On Italian wiki there's a sentence that states it clearly, and then adds that traditionally there are four other archangels that revealed themselves to a priest in Palermo, Italy, but I can't find the English translation T_T
Anyway, I found this other (arch)angel who may be interesting, Samael (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samael): he has been regarded as both good and evil. Isn't this what D.Gray-Man should be ultimately about, you know, gray, not entirely good and not entirely bad? D: He's also assimilated to Satan/Lucifer (who many think are two distinct beings) sometimes, so…
… The 14th…?
Yeah, the angel of death seemed pretty cool! But they are far too many kinds of angels and both English and Italian wikipedias are confusing on this point, so I was thinking to get back to it with some real book as soon as I get home, in July. I don't trust the Internet on religious matters.

Adam. Ugh. That was very confusing. The very fact that Noah are allies of the Earl against the Innocence's God is confusing. Road said that exorcists were following a false God – I don't see of that could be possible, but what if she is right?
Possibly the “physical” fight of Exorcists vs. Noah reflects the “spiritual” fight of “God vs. Satan”?
I definitively think it does. But, as far as we know, then God is losing, because Earl could annihilate Order if he just wanted so. It has been said more than once.
… Hmm.

Wait wait wait wait – with Nephilim you mean the sons of who? Because I thought the story is, there were these angels/sons of God(?) who were supposed to watch over humans and then got corrupted, thus creating this Nephilim kind with the daughters of man. So, the sons of God should be angels, and–
WAIT I found something that could be interesting:

“Here, the "sons of God" are given no specific name or function; they could represent fallen angels, heavenly beings that mate with women. The Book of Enoch regards these as the same angels who are referred to as the Benei Ha-Elohim (Eng. Sons of God) in the Book of Genesis. According to this belief their sins filled the Earth with violence and the world was destroyed as a result of their intervention. Later theologians believed the "sons of God" to refer to the descendants of Seth and the "daughters of man" to refer to the descendants of Cain.”

The world was destroyed, uh? Isn't that what happened in D.Gray-Man?

If I want to try to tie the Bible and DGM together, I could say the nepihlim were one to manipulate the Biblical account of the Noah to suit their ways, because if you think about it, Noah abilities are different forms of manipulation. The Earl manipulate emotions, Wisely manipulate minds, etc. So maybe they took on the name of “Noah.” It might explain why they don’t die but instead find hosts to live in.

Oh, I like this. Especially the manipulation part, I never thought about it but it makes damn sense. But more than nephi-whatever, couldn't they be these grigori/watchers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigori)?
P.S: thank you x3 It's actually getting worse post after post because I'm writing faster to answer, but as far as is comprehensible I'm relatively fine for now xD

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