ext_20827 (![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png)
scarlet-pencil.livejournal.com) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
dgray_man2008-06-08 07:45 am
scarlet-pencil.livejournal.com) wrote in dgray_man2008-06-08 07:45 am
Entry tags:
In Search of the Heart - A Theory about the Heart of the Innocence
Hello! I thought you guys might be interested in a theory about the Heart that I posted here at my journal. It was one of those things that just hit me randomly while I was reading the latest chapters. xD It contains some spoilers for the latest chapters.
no subject
But then, Allen IS the main character and we all know how these guys get everything cool. However, Lavi being the Heart could provide for some interesting conflict for Allen. Lavi would be torned between his Bookman side and his duty as an Exorcist; Bookmen would want him back before he got too involved with the fight (also, linking it to the theory that has been brought up in previous posts, maybe they would use him to negotiate with the Earl?) and the Vatican would want the Heart to erradicate the Earl. Exorcists receive orders to protect the Heart and keep it with the Black Order no matter what; Allen gets angsty because, besides and above the Heart, he sees his friend. Sooo... Duty or friendship for him?
Also, the whole "Bookmen have no need for a heart" is probably there for a reason. Like you said, Lavi's character is all about his Heart which, supposedly, he just found while in Road's dream. Bookmen may not need it but Exorcists sure do and a lot XD I can clearly see the struggle inside his cute little head from now on even if he doesn't know he has the Heart.
Having said this, unfortunately, I don't think we'll see Lavi being the Heart... I think it will be Allen or Cross, really XD Or maybe even a weird combination of the four of them's Innocence? Hell, Hevlaska could be the Heart, since she's host to the cube! The new character theory or the hosteless Innocence theory have been discarded the moment the Earl said the Heart had awoken, I think (presuming his source is reliable, off course) --- unless there suddenly appears an Exorcist no one knew about who found a bit of scattered Innocence...? But that sounds like it just came out of a fanfiction, so I'm hoping Hoshino won't do that to us XD
Anyway, here's to hoping our theories are correct! And sorry for the ramble ^_^
no subject
That is a very interesting point to bring up. ^^ After all, Allen's character is all about saving people. In fact, we see that he fights the Akuma to save their souls, instead of just to get rid of them because they're dangerous. And Allen isn't above putting the good of individuals above the good of the Order/a mission... remember Allen's first mission with Kanda with the doll running on Innocence. The smart thing to do would have been to take the Innocence immediately, but Allen waited, even though it was dangerous. ^^ It's feasable that Allen would go through a lot of conflict about Lavi, especially since Lavi is a good friend of Allen's. Heck, Allen wouldn't even fight Lavi when Lavi was being controled by Rhode and trying to kill Allen. "Lavi, can't you hear my voice?" Hee hee.
Even if Lavi doesn't turn out to be the Heart, there's going to be a lot of struggle up ahead for him on whether or not he can have a normal heart and emotions at all. It's definitely going ot be interesting to watch. :D Lavi being the Heart of the Innocence would only make that conflict mroe intense. ^^
I would actually be surprised if Allen were the Heart, because he already has the 14th. I don't think the Heart would choose a boy with a Noah influencing him as a host, no matter what that Noah's intentions were. Cross is interesting to bring up, considering that he has that Grave of Maria. Again though, I think that Cross is too powerful to be the Heart... He took out Tiki pretty easily, he doesn't need another powerup. Hevlaska is actually a very interesting candidate. (And I'm anxious to hear about her connection to Rouvelier. XD) And I suppose it being someone yet to be introduced is a possibility, but I agreee with you, that sounds too much like a fanfic. *hopes against that possibilty*
.... Unless, the Heart turned out to be someone from the Vatican. And the Vatican knewthat someone was the Heart, and withheld that information from the Order. Fufufufu. We know too little about the Vatican at this point, though. ^^
Cheers to rambling about theories! :D
no subject
It would also be interesting to see how the other characters would deal with Lavi's struggle; after all, they don't know anything about his doubts, about the "frivolous and friendly" thing, about his struggle. If he was indeed the Heart it would make all this conflict much more interesting (and angsty) because, really, what would LAVI choose? I'm sure he wouldn't give a damn about the Vatican but between Bookman and his friends? Hard one to guess.
"I don't think the Heart would choose a boy with a Noah influencing him as a host, no matter what that Noah's intentions were." --- I'm not quite sure I agree with this, though. Innocence seems to have a strange will of its own and the Heart seems to be the worse out of all the pieces. We know all too little about it at the moment; we just know it can be ruthless (with the Suman incident) or it can save its hosts or even help its hosts while hurting them (Lenalee's crystal type). So does every piece has an individual will or are they all connected and "controlled" by one piece (the Heart, most likely) or someone? As to Allen's connection to the 14th... I think this way we would have to get into a discussion about who the Noah really are (which I don't mind! XD). If we're going biblical here, Noah was saved by God, and, even more so, Allen could wipe out Tyki's Noah and leave the human; maybe there's a chance of redemption for them? Maybe the 14th was forgiven by God and the Innocence when he took their side against the Earl? I'm guessing the Heart would choose the stronger candidate and, if we believe the 14th had indeed be forgiven, Allen's connection to him wouldn't be a problem. But, like I said, we know too little about the Innocence at this point to really be able to tell.
About Hevlaska; when I heard she had the cube I was like "So, isn't that the core and, thus, the Heart of the Innocence? O_O" It made so much sense to me I thought they were just being big dummies by not thinking about it XD "And I'm anxious to hear about her connection to Rouvelier. XD" --- Seconded and QFTW
"We know too little about the Vatican at this point, though. ^^" --- Totally O_O I thought it wouldn't be really important for the plotline but when Rouvelier was introduced and he started talking about "the Pope's army" and what not, I changed my mind. In fact... I'm wishing to see the Black Order break from the Vatican and start acting on its own. I can so see Komui doing that to protect the Exorcists XP
(OMG, people should know better than to get me talking about DGM theories XD)
no subject
Especially if Lavi left without having a chance to explain himself to them. They really wouldn't know what to think. As for Lavi learning about his being the Heart... it would be interesting to see. After all, even though Lavi obviously really cares about his friends, he still hasn't broken ties with the Bookmen. You would think that if Lavi has 100% made the decision to stick with his friends, he would have told Bookman so. But Lavi hasn't stood up to Bookman at all yet. Which leads me to wonder again, what exactly is involved in being a Bookman? What is so important about it that Lavi would apparently have a very hard time choosing between it and his friends? Adding the Heart into that would only make things more difficult for Lavi, as he would also basicially have the fate of the world hanging on him then.
Hmm, you bring up a very interesting point there. The Innocence does seem to be mostly interested in furthering its own agenda, even at the expence of the Exorcists. (Kanda might be an example of this, depending on how he ended up having his lifespan tied to his Innocence.)
So does every piece has an individual will or are they all connected and "controlled" by one piece (the Heart, most likely) or someone?
Hmm... Originally, all the pieces of Innocence were one big block, Hevlaska's cube. It's feasable to assume that they could be connected. However, if they were connected, one would expect that the Exorcists would be able to use that connection somehow to locate other Innocence, that there would be some sort of reaction when pieces of Innocence neared each other. It wouldn't necessarily happen, but it would make sense. But I personally think that the Innocence are currently completely separated from each other, with individual will, just working towards a common goal. That's just speculation, though. XD
On the Noah: Yeah, in the Bible, God saved Noah from the Great Flood because the world was so wicked God felt he had no choice but to send judgement. Hence the current Noahs feeling that they are superior to normal people. XD I predict that the Noah (or at least, Tiki Mick and Rhode) will end up being saved by Allen somehow. Both of them have been portrayed as sympathetic, if misguided characters. (Tiki with supporting those friends of his we saw on the train, Rhode with her interactions with Allen so far.) The 14th, meanwhile, is very interesting. We still don't know why he chose to defect. It could have been because he realized that the Earl's plans for world destruction were evil. Or it could have been for completely unrelated reasons.
I'm guessing the Heart would choose the stronger candidate and, if we believe the 14th had indeed be forgiven, Allen's connection to him wouldn't be a problem.
Hm, that's an interesting point. Allen's Innocence, after all, was surprisingly able to survive being crushed by Tiki, which could indicate that it was the Heart, as the Heart would presumably be a strong Innocence. I agree with you though, we know too little about the Innocence (and the 14th, for that matter) to tell yet. :)
A big problem in figuring out who is the Heart is the fact that no one seems to have a clue as to how to figure out which piece is the Heart. As they said in the beginning, the Heart looks like any other piece of Innocence. There isn't a way to differentiate it at this time. It's very possible that Hevlaska has the Heart though, considering the masses of Innocence she guards. :D And it sounds like Hevlaska and Rouvelier go way back... I'm wondering if they were engaged or something before Hevlaska arrived at the Order. Anyway, there's something going on between them; Rouvelier was adamant about not letting Hevlaska be killed, as I recall.
no subject
The Vatican is a new and interesting body. We know nothing about them. For all we know, the Earl could have infiltrated the Vatican already. Also, I'm wondering if they are attempting to find a way for non-Innocence equipped people to kill Akumas... Or even to create weapons out of Innocence without hosts. *looks forward to hearing more about the Vatican*
In fact... I'm wishing to see the Black Order break from the Vatican and start acting on its own. I can so see Komui doing that to protect the Exorcists XP
That might actually be a possibilty. The Order is relocating to the Asian branch, after all... and they have control of the Arc. Plus, Allen is possibly going to go on trial soon, and the Order needs him to fight the Earl. With the Arc, the Order might have enough power to separate from the Vatican and endure the threat of "the Pope's army." :O
(Hee hee, I don't know better! XP And this is fun. XD)
no subject
"But Lavi hasn't stood up to Bookman at all yet. Which leads me to wonder again, what exactly is involved in being a Bookman? What is so important about it that Lavi would apparently have a very hard time choosing between it and his friends?" --- Indeed. As I've said up there, we need more information on the Bookmen (ah, why am i always asking for more info when it comes to this fandom? '-_-) But it could also be habbit, you know? He's been trained for it ever since he was such a little child, he DECIDED to join the Bookmen, wasn't dragged into it as, say, Lenalee to the Order. I think he honestly doesn't want to let go of his Bookman side.
As for the Noah... Hell, I have a gazillion questions about them XP If they were saved by God, as in the Bible, why would they side with the Earl, who is God's enemy? Road says the Exorcists follow a false God... She says they are the Earl's sacrificial lambs... I have a gazillion theories on that but I'm able to argue against them all so I have yet to decide on anything. I'm not so sure they'd be redeemed. As you point out, they have been shown to have redeeming qualities, especially Tyki, but it's about the choices they make, you know? They don't WANT to stop being Noah; is this solely because of the demon inside them... or is Hoshino playing with human's darker side here? It all depends on her intentions, I think.
"A big problem in figuring out who is the Heart is the fact that no one seems to have a clue as to how to figure out which piece is the Heart." --- Hum, yeah O_O How can they find something they can't even identify? I'm curious to see how Hoshino handles this. Will some piece of Innocence perform something immensely bad-ass? I can only think of Allen's Crown Clown and its exorcising properties, really '-_- Unless the Heart doesn't do anything special O_O You know, since it binds all other parts together, it doesn't really have a great power but exists to GRANT power to all the others and give them a will or something? More reasons for Lavi to be the Heart since his Innocence seems so... unspecial. YAY =D
"And it sounds like Hevlaska and Rouvelier go way back... I'm wondering if they were engaged or something before Hevlaska arrived at the Order." --- Hum, Hevlaska is at the Order ever since it was founded some 100 years ago O_O I'm guessing Rouvelier isn't that old? XD I think it's a family matter, really. Remember the boy who was experimented on? Maybe he was offered as a sacrifice (as some from Rouvelier's family seem to be) but he was actually close to Rouvelier and he blames Hevlaska for killing him? I'm thinking something like this, anyway O_O
no subject
They're relocating to the Asian Branch? O_O Whaa~? I thought that wasn't confirmed yet. Lavi was even asking if it was near London, since he heard something about it. Could you please point me where you saw this, please? Or did you just assume it since they have an easy means of transportation to get there: the Ark?
(It is fun ^_^ But now I won't shut up >_> <_< Sorry about that... And I honestly hope were not banned for clogging everything with huge posts XD Also, sorry about the reposting but LJ is hating me atm ;-;)
no subject
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_XIII --- Link to wiki because I'm too lazy to make a summary XP
This is the Pope at the time DGM supposedly takes place and something about him strikes me as interesting: "People differ in capacity, skill, health, strength; and unequal fortune is a necessary result of unequal condition. Such inequality is far from being disadvantageous either to individuals or to the community." --- I don't know if you watch Code Geass but that sounds like something the Evil!Emperor would say...
Also: "He firmly re-asserted the scholastic doctrine that science and religion co-exist, and required the study of Thomas Aquinas and opened the Vatican Secret Archives to qualified researchers, among whom was the noted historian of the Papacy Ludwig von Pastor." --- All lies, I tell you... He was showing the records to the Bookmen Clan =D And the science department! Oh and maybe the Noah? XD
Seriously, now... Hum, does this help a little to the discussion? (and maybe that fic? XD)
Again, sorry for this '-_- I'm clogging your e-mail inbox XD
no subject
I agree! It is possible to record history and participate in it as well, after all.
As for the Noah... Hell, I have a gazillion questions about them XP If they were saved by God, as in the Bible, why would they side with the Earl, who is God's enemy? Road says the Exorcists follow a false God... She says they are the Earl's sacrificial lambs...
Good questions. The Noah seem to sincerely believe in what they're doing-- wiping out everyone else on the planet. Maybe they think they're doing God a favor by finishing the job he started with the first Flood? And I think you're right on the Noahs representing the darker side of humanity. It's a toss up then, as to whether any of the Noahs will be redeemed.
Unless the Heart doesn't do anything special O_O You know, since it binds all other parts together, it doesn't really have a great power but exists to GRANT power to all the others and give them a will or something? More reasons for Lavi to be the Heart since his Innocence seems so... unspecial. YAY =D
Ooh, now that's an interesting theory. Perhaps the Heart acts as a booster of sorts, powering up other Innocence in its general area? Or it could act as a coordinator, allowing the Innocence to work together better?
Hum, Hevlaska is at the Order ever since it was founded some 100 years ago O_O I'm guessing Rouvelier isn't that old? XD
... Oh. XD So much for my reading comprehension skillz. *laughs*
I think it's a family matter, really. Remember the boy who was experimented on? Maybe he was offered as a sacrifice (as some from Rouvelier's family seem to be) but he was actually close to Rouvelier and he blames Hevlaska for killing him? I'm thinking something like this, anyway O_O
That would make sense. Although, I thought Rouvelier wanted to protect Hevlaska when the Order was under attack from the Level 4? I need to reread
the entire mangathose chapters. XDThe Vatican sounds fishy, at least coming from Rouvelier's mouth... "No other reason than defeating the Earl" That sounds just a little weird and almost as if he's hiding something...
Very fishy. The Vatican sounds way too large to be soley interested in defeating the Earl. It seems to me like the Vatican doesn't completely trust the Order... which makes sense. At the moment, the Order is the only organization capable of combatting the Earl. I'm certain the Vatican isn't happy about that.
Believing everything his superiors tell him, never questioning anything. But who knows?
I don't know either. I'm not quite certain what to make of Rouvelier. He definitely has an agenda, but beyond that, I can't even begin to guess. XD
They're relocating to the Asian Branch? O_O Whaa~? I thought that wasn't confirmed yet. Lavi was even asking if it was near London, since he heard something about it. Could you please point me where you saw this, please? Or did you just assume it since they have an easy means of transportation to get there: the Ark?
I thought I read it at the beginning of the Zombie chapters.... *checks* Oops, my mistake! XD; I thought that they specifically said the Asian branch, but it looks like I was wrong. ^^; Sorry!
That's a very interesting article on the Pope. Assumining that the Pope of Hoshino's world is the same as this one... it brings out some interesting possibilities. This Pope definitely seemed like the type to overlook some suffering in the interests of bettering the church. At the same time, he wasn't evil either. Perhaps in DGM's Vatican he could have started up a committee to oversee the Order and the fight against the Exorcists, a committee which then later develped alterior motives/was infiltrated by the Earl/any number of shady things. Fufufu. >D
And no problem with the inbox thing. :D
no subject
Hum, I have to reread those chapters as well since I can't quite remember Rouvelier's reaction and his position about Hevlaska; all I remember is him wanting to drag Lenalee over there >.< (And Lavi being oh so sweet to her XD I love that boy...)
The Vatican seems to want to keep the Order on a tight leash. Too tight, really. Of course they're the only ones who can fight the Akuma and they are very important but why should they send someone like Rouvelier to keep it under check? Remember the reunion with the Generals? Just a little too radical, I think... But does he have specific orders to act like that or that's simply him being himself? Though I do think he gets a sadistic pleasure from his power over the Order (his creepy smile while telling Allen about the 14th suddenly comes to mind) and the whole talk of "the pope's army" makes me think he's not only a radical but also that he was put in that position BECAUSE of that. But maybe he's just a bad apple... Or maybe he'll end up being a GOOD apple because he genuinely seems to hate the Earl and is being used by his superiors who have other intentions?
Like you said, any number of shady things could happen... The problem with DGM (as well as why it is so interesting compared to some other manga out there *cough*Bleach*cough*) is that there are countless possibilities... and we can only guess!
Although, sad as it is, I think we're going into the last arcs of the series; the plot can't be stalled forever, these new uniforms give out the impression that they are finally going into an open war (at least they're all military - and awesome - looking and everything O.o), we had that chapter on the Noah and the Earl's human form, Allen's already a Point Breaker so there isn't much more he can evolve in terms of powers (unless he's really the Heart '-.- but even so...) and the fans are getting too itchy to get the mysteries (namely Kanda's tattoo and "that someone" and Lavi's eye) solved to keep it from them for too long without starting a riot XD I really think after this crack mini-arc, Hoshino will start uncovering everything she has introduced so far; that could actually be the reason why she has stopped this week to "sort out the upcoming plot".
Having said this... DGM's ending scares me a bit O.O Not only because I love it and there's always that bittersweet feeling at seeing something you love ending but I really think some characters I love might die. Allen, for example ;-; I have been saying that for a while now... You know when Lavi was watching him going into the light in the Ark? And I can totally see him dying for his friends in a messianic way (Mana did give him the birthday of 25th of December and I have been reading some analogies between his role and Jesus that seem to make sense, so...). And I can see Lavi taking the lead if that happened and keep everyone together, really, which could be ANOTHER reason for him being the Heart. I read somewhere that he was supposed to be the main character for another of Hoshino's manga so maybe we would get a DGM2 focused on Lavi, then... But that's beyond the point XD
(Aww, man, I should gather up all my theories and all we've been discussing and post them up on my journal since it doesn't even have an opening post, ne? Or maybe gather them all into that fic that will never see the light of day... XD Thanks for the discussion, it's really interesting ^_^)
no subject
Hee hee, all I remember was Allen fighting off the Level 4 and Lavi and Kanda jumping in to help him hold it off, even though they didn't have any weapons. XD
Yeah, there's a lot of questions hovering around the Vatican and Rouvelier. Though, I have to say that Howard Link
Ahaha, I nearly misspelled that as "Kink"seems like a genuinely good person to me. So maybe that reflects on his superior a bit? I don't know. XD;It does seem like it's time to start going into the final stage of things, doesn't it? And the new uniforms are awesome. <3 But it will be great to finally start getting some answers to the trillions of questions. XD I'm very curious about Kanda's mysteries, in particular. And Lavi's eye is going to be interesting as well. Gramps doesn't have anything going on with his eyes, after all. Fufufu.
I'd be sad to see the series end, too. There aren't many manga series that really excell in characters, plot, and artwork, but DGM is awesome in all those respects. As for people dying... I'm going to cling to the general "main characters don't die" idea as my only hope.
Allen can't die, nooooooo. T.TAlthough Allen is the type to be quite happy with sacrificing himself for others. *forboding feeling*I remember reading about that. Lavi was supposed to be the main character of a manga called "Bookman," but Hoshino ended up using him and the Bookmen in DGM instead. Fufufu... That means that there is definitely a lot more to the Bookmen than what we've seen, since Hoshino planned out a lot for them. :D
(Hee hee, that would be awesome! And I've really enjoyed our discussion too. ^_^ It convinced me that I need to reread the manga, ahaha. XD)
no subject
Ooh, I remember that as well! Who's the cold bastard who doesn't care about anyone now, Kanda? XD (Only slightly related but that part, after the fight, when everyone was mourning together - right before Tapp died - and Kanda walked away alone broke my heart ;-;)
To me, Link is even weirder than Rouvelier O_o I really don't know what to think of him... If you think about the part, after the Level 4 fight, when he carried Allen back; was that really just his job or an act of kindness? Anyway, he's too stiff and uptight for my taste XP
I'm really thrilled about this next stage; so many things could happen! Ditto about Kanda's mysteries 8D "There aren't many manga series that really excell in characters, plot, and artwork, but DGM is awesome in all those respects." --- Exactly! Don't get me wrong, I love Bleach, Naruto and a bunch of others as much as the next person but DGM... I don't know; it's special. It's really well done, the characters are fantastic (I remember I only settled on a favourite after Lavi's fight with Road because I love them all so much), the Noah are amazing villains and the plot is just... gahh. Well, it got us discussing this far and we're only really talking about Lavi and the Heart XD
"I'm going to cling to the general "main characters don't die" idea as my only hope. Allen can't die, nooooooo. T.T Although Allen is the type to be quite happy with sacrificing himself for others." --- I'm trying to do the same but as I was rewatching the anime recently, I just keep thinking about Lenalee's weird dreams of everyone dying and that opening with her crying and Allen resting on her lap... Maybe that was solely about the rough time he had at the Asian Branch? But then again, she started having those weird thoughts again in the Ark... So is the anime only taking liberties or do they know something we don't? *crosses fingers for Allen and everyone else to be safe and sound by the end of the manga*
Ne, ne, maybe we'll get a full mini-arc about the Bookmen, since Hoshino has so much backstory done on them? :D
(I think I'll do that as soon as college stops feasting on my brain. Aah, don't worry, I'm the girl who keeps forgetting important plot points XD Like what Rouvelier told Allen about the 14th and that Krory was a parasitic type XD --- But I didn't get any sleep that night so maybe... that's an excuse?)