dgray_man | In Search of the Heart - A Theory about the Heart of the Innocence

Ahhhh, I never once thought of Lavi being the heart of the innocence. All of the points you matched to the heart and Lavi, yet comparing it to other characters was really well thought out. :D To be honest, I'm unsure myself. I've heard a lot of different views from a lot of different people and sources, etc. But I've never really settled on a theory or claim regarding the heart of innocence. We'll just have to see what Katsura Hoshino has in store for us, yes? XD

Thank you! ^^ Lavi made a lot of sense to me, especially considering how much the manga has focused on his character. And I agree with you, it's far too early to guess for sure what Hoshino has planned. ^_^ It's fun to speculate, though. *laughs* :D

Yeah, it really is. I have my hopes up for something that probably won't happen, but you know how things are... XD

Your icons are so cute! :D Are you a Lavi/Allen fan, perchance?

Oh? What are you hoping for? :)

Yes, and yes. XD

I'm hoping for Allen and Lavi to get together. D: Or at least something along those lines...? Highly unlikely, but I still have some kind of hope. XD

Awesome and awesome! XD DO you mind if I friend you? :)

Normally I'd say that that would be impossible, but you know, I acutally have my doubts in D. Gray-man. Allen and Lenalee certainly aren't showing any signs of getting together. So I actually think that there's an outside chance for Lavi/Allen (or at least, a gen ending leaving room for Lavi/Allen.) You never know. :D

Of course not. XD

Yeah, there's a possibility for every pairing if you think about it... I've heard a lot of reasons for Allen/Lavi, Allen/Kanda, Lavi/Kanda, etc. But there's no "true" canon pairing in the DGM fandom really. XD; But Allen and Lavi are just my cup of tea. ♥

Interesting theory. =O I think Lavi's definitely a much, much more likely candidate than Kanda, and that he'd be a brilliant way to bring about some great conflict and plotwork. However, what's making me doubt it (because it is an incredibly brilliant idea) is that Hoshino seems to be a bit less out there and a bit more predictable than that. Despite the plot twists she's thrown at us, nothing's ever really blown my mind, so I tend to think of her as a little tamer with her twists than a lot of authors I read, for instance. So, that's what's making me doubt that it's Lavi right now.

It's a great possibility, though, and I'd be so thrilled if it came up--what a great way to make everything go into utter chaos!

It's a very interesting theory! Your points make sense, and Lavi being the Heart is definitely a plausible outcome.
I think it's worth pointing out, though, that one of the more recent chapters (158, or thereabout) seemed to indicate that the person who has the Heart already knows he/she has it and is hiding that fact -- or, at least, that's what the Earl and the Noah think. This certainly does not discredit your theory, but I thought I should bring it up...

Thank you. :) And I had actually forgetten that point. It is very interesting... I wonder what the Earl's source is anf how reliable it is. The Heart appears to be such a mysterious thing, no one seems to have all the information about it so far. ^^ And it's definitely still up in the air as to who (or what) the Heart really is. Fun to speculate about, though. ^^

Great! :D *does so*

I agree. There's been a lot of development for many of the pairings, and some pairings that I wouldn't have thought of at the beginning of the series are beginning to make more sense as time goes on. For example, Kanda/Lenalee: at the beginning of the series they never seemed to talk to each other or know each other very well. Now, recently, we've found out that Lenalee used to hang out with Kanda whenever she got too stressed because of Rouvelier. Pairings just keep getting more material as time goes on. ^^

I agree with you though, Allen and Lavi make a good pairing. (They're my favorite pairing in this fandom, actually. XD) I like their interactions in the manga. ^^

Thank you. ^^ And that's an interesting point. One thing to note is that, if Hoshino decides to go with Lavi, there has been (if I'm right, anyway, XD) a bit of buildup to it. That would mean that it wouldn't be completely out the blue... unexpected, perhaps, but not out of the blue. However, it's still very much a toss up. After all, we still haven't learned why Rouvelier was so interested in Lenalee. Nor do we know much yet about Kanda. Not to mention the fact that the heart could be any one of the other exorcists or a piece of Innocence without a host. (Or, as one person pointed out, it could be a fusion of several pieces of Innocence.) There's no way to tell at this point. ^^

I think it woud make for an excellent plot twist, certainly. :D

I also wonder where the Earl got his info. I think it would be interesting if he was wrong...
Oh, definitely, no one can know for sure who/what the Heart is at this point. I have yet to pick any particular candidate as most likely to be the Heart, but your argument for Lavi is very persuasive. Unless it turned out that whoever has the Heart has to die or something, I'd be perfectly happy with Lavi being the Heart. I agree with what you said to kageling about there being a bit of buildup.
It is fun to speculate! The more discussion, the better. ^__^

*fixes HTML* Sorry for the repost. XD;

*pure speculation here* I'm wondering if the Earl is getting his information from the Bookmen. After all, they claim to be a neutral organization. Bookman seems to have no qualms about leaving the Order, so possibly the Bookmen clan would have no qualms about giving the Earl information about the Heart in exchange for information for their books. Ahaha, and I'm glad my random thoughts are persuasive. XD I certainly hope that the holder of the heart doesn't have to die. Especially if it is Lavi. My heart would break. D:

Indeed! :D

I think you make a lot of interesting points and I actually agree with you. Every one of the main four characters seem to have special things of their own; Allen and Lenalee's Innocence protected them (and Allen's a point breaker and Lenalee's also evolved in a strange but powerful way), Kanda has the mysterious tattoo, the lotus and that "someone" he has to find, supposedly all of this connected to his Innocence, and Lavi has... an eye we don't know anything about; cool. An eye that has to do with his Bookman side, might I add; so no special super-duper Innocence for him? That would be underating the character a bit, imo.

But then, Allen IS the main character and we all know how these guys get everything cool. However, Lavi being the Heart could provide for some interesting conflict for Allen. Lavi would be torned between his Bookman side and his duty as an Exorcist; Bookmen would want him back before he got too involved with the fight (also, linking it to the theory that has been brought up in previous posts, maybe they would use him to negotiate with the Earl?) and the Vatican would want the Heart to erradicate the Earl. Exorcists receive orders to protect the Heart and keep it with the Black Order no matter what; Allen gets angsty because, besides and above the Heart, he sees his friend. Sooo... Duty or friendship for him?

Also, the whole "Bookmen have no need for a heart" is probably there for a reason. Like you said, Lavi's character is all about his Heart which, supposedly, he just found while in Road's dream. Bookmen may not need it but Exorcists sure do and a lot XD I can clearly see the struggle inside his cute little head from now on even if he doesn't know he has the Heart.

Having said this, unfortunately, I don't think we'll see Lavi being the Heart... I think it will be Allen or Cross, really XD Or maybe even a weird combination of the four of them's Innocence? Hell, Hevlaska could be the Heart, since she's host to the cube! The new character theory or the hosteless Innocence theory have been discarded the moment the Earl said the Heart had awoken, I think (presuming his source is reliable, off course) --- unless there suddenly appears an Exorcist no one knew about who found a bit of scattered Innocence...? But that sounds like it just came out of a fanfiction, so I'm hoping Hoshino won't do that to us XD

Anyway, here's to hoping our theories are correct! And sorry for the ramble ^_^

In what chp did the earl mention his knowlage of the heart?? 'cos I cant for the life of me remember!

Oh! Ans I'd love for Lavi to be the heart and for the plot to become Lavi-centric tehe ^^

I honestly can't remember the exact chapter number. It was very recent, not more than five to ten chapters ago, though. Just about when all of this zombie stuff started happening. :)

XD Lavi is one of my favorite characters, so I'd be deliriously happy if the plot focused more on him. Though, I also want to find out more about Kanda eventually... I just can't wait to find out what happens. XD

Ah! 0_0 That's something I never would have thought of! A truly neutral group might do that. That would be a troubling yet intriguing twist to the story. I wonder how the other characters would react to that. ~~Haha, if such a thing does not come up in canon, it would make an interesting fanfic.~~
Oh, same here. I ♥ Lavi.

It would be very interesting, because if the Bookmen began selling information to the Earl, it could call into question Lavi and Bookman's motives for being in the Order. I'm certain that the Order would be worried about them being spies. :P ~~Heehee, I've been thinking about writing this into a fanfic, actually. It's too interesting of an idea to leave alone. XD~~
Lavi is awesome. ^.^

I agree. And, Lavi has been a central character so far. He's been getting lots of screentime all along, ever since he was introduced. It would be odd to spend so much time developing a character and not having him play a critical role. ^^

That is a very interesting point to bring up. ^^ After all, Allen's character is all about saving people. In fact, we see that he fights the Akuma to save their souls, instead of just to get rid of them because they're dangerous. And Allen isn't above putting the good of individuals above the good of the Order/a mission... remember Allen's first mission with Kanda with the doll running on Innocence. The smart thing to do would have been to take the Innocence immediately, but Allen waited, even though it was dangerous. ^^ It's feasable that Allen would go through a lot of conflict about Lavi, especially since Lavi is a good friend of Allen's. Heck, Allen wouldn't even fight Lavi when Lavi was being controled by Rhode and trying to kill Allen. "Lavi, can't you hear my voice?" Hee hee.

Even if Lavi doesn't turn out to be the Heart, there's going to be a lot of struggle up ahead for him on whether or not he can have a normal heart and emotions at all. It's definitely going ot be interesting to watch. :D Lavi being the Heart of the Innocence would only make that conflict mroe intense. ^^

I would actually be surprised if Allen were the Heart, because he already has the 14th. I don't think the Heart would choose a boy with a Noah influencing him as a host, no matter what that Noah's intentions were. Cross is interesting to bring up, considering that he has that Grave of Maria. Again though, I think that Cross is too powerful to be the Heart... He took out Tiki pretty easily, he doesn't need another powerup. Hevlaska is actually a very interesting candidate. (And I'm anxious to hear about her connection to Rouvelier. XD) And I suppose it being someone yet to be introduced is a possibility, but I agreee with you, that sounds too much like a fanfic. *hopes against that possibilty*

.... Unless, the Heart turned out to be someone from the Vatican. And the Vatican knewthat someone was the Heart, and withheld that information from the Order. Fufufufu. We know too little about the Vatican at this point, though. ^^

Cheers to rambling about theories! :D

The Order would definitely be worried. It's reminding me of when Allen was first accused of heresy. Do you think Lavi and Bookman would be put on trial? Truth or rumor, word spreads quickly in the Order, too... ~~You should write it! It'd be a waste not to do something with this. X3~~
He is! ^_^

And it would throw everyone who knew Lavi into a tizzy too, as they'd have to decide if they trusted Lavi or not. Especially people like Kanda, who are already suspicious and don't open up to people easily. Oooh, that's a good point. It would depend on how valuable Lavi was to the Order, and whether the Vatican could get their hands on Lavi and Bookman without those two making a run for it. Very true. Given how many people die in the Order, traitors and perceived traitors are likely to be treated with revulsion. ~~Hehe, I might have to. :D It'd make a fun summer project. ^^~~

Ne, do you mind if I friend you? :D

Seconded everything about Allen and Lavi. I can't wait to see Lavi's conflict from now on. That part where he decided to go with Lenalee during the attack on Headquarters, the way he risked his life, fighting without Innocence, to protect everyone, then Bookman telling him they'd have to leave if he got too involved and him getting all worked up because he was feeling so heartbroken... Is it easy to tell he's my favourite character and why? XD

It would also be interesting to see how the other characters would deal with Lavi's struggle; after all, they don't know anything about his doubts, about the "frivolous and friendly" thing, about his struggle. If he was indeed the Heart it would make all this conflict much more interesting (and angsty) because, really, what would LAVI choose? I'm sure he wouldn't give a damn about the Vatican but between Bookman and his friends? Hard one to guess.

"I don't think the Heart would choose a boy with a Noah influencing him as a host, no matter what that Noah's intentions were." --- I'm not quite sure I agree with this, though. Innocence seems to have a strange will of its own and the Heart seems to be the worse out of all the pieces. We know all too little about it at the moment; we just know it can be ruthless (with the Suman incident) or it can save its hosts or even help its hosts while hurting them (Lenalee's crystal type). So does every piece has an individual will or are they all connected and "controlled" by one piece (the Heart, most likely) or someone? As to Allen's connection to the 14th... I think this way we would have to get into a discussion about who the Noah really are (which I don't mind! XD). If we're going biblical here, Noah was saved by God, and, even more so, Allen could wipe out Tyki's Noah and leave the human; maybe there's a chance of redemption for them? Maybe the 14th was forgiven by God and the Innocence when he took their side against the Earl? I'm guessing the Heart would choose the stronger candidate and, if we believe the 14th had indeed be forgiven, Allen's connection to him wouldn't be a problem. But, like I said, we know too little about the Innocence at this point to really be able to tell.

About Hevlaska; when I heard she had the cube I was like "So, isn't that the core and, thus, the Heart of the Innocence? O_O" It made so much sense to me I thought they were just being big dummies by not thinking about it XD "And I'm anxious to hear about her connection to Rouvelier. XD" --- Seconded and QFTW

"We know too little about the Vatican at this point, though. ^^" --- Totally O_O I thought it wouldn't be really important for the plotline but when Rouvelier was introduced and he started talking about "the Pope's army" and what not, I changed my mind. In fact... I'm wishing to see the Black Order break from the Vatican and start acting on its own. I can so see Komui doing that to protect the Exorcists XP

(OMG, people should know better than to get me talking about DGM theories XD)

Mind if I join the discussion just for a quick comment?

That IS an incredibly interesting theory O_O I've been wondering about the Bookman Clan ever since Bookman and Lavi were introduced and the fact Panda keeps saying how they're on the Order's side by chance has my brain exploding from the possibilities. And THAT would be an awfully interesting plot twist... Now imagine that ALONG with Lavi being the Heart O_O I can see a whole Lavi arc X3 Lavi on the run, persecuted by the Vatican, his friends worrying about and searching for him, Bookmen trying to decide what is the best way to use him since they don't give a damn about anyone... And what would Panda do? O_O Would he really give out Lavi to the other Bookmen?

(If you write that fic... Please share? ^_^)

Sorry for barging in! ^_^

Indeed, Lavi is fascinating because of how little we actually know about him. Plus, I like that he's such a likeable character. It makes reading about him fun. :D

Especially if Lavi left without having a chance to explain himself to them. They really wouldn't know what to think. As for Lavi learning about his being the Heart... it would be interesting to see. After all, even though Lavi obviously really cares about his friends, he still hasn't broken ties with the Bookmen. You would think that if Lavi has 100% made the decision to stick with his friends, he would have told Bookman so. But Lavi hasn't stood up to Bookman at all yet. Which leads me to wonder again, what exactly is involved in being a Bookman? What is so important about it that Lavi would apparently have a very hard time choosing between it and his friends? Adding the Heart into that would only make things more difficult for Lavi, as he would also basicially have the fate of the world hanging on him then.

Hmm, you bring up a very interesting point there. The Innocence does seem to be mostly interested in furthering its own agenda, even at the expence of the Exorcists. (Kanda might be an example of this, depending on how he ended up having his lifespan tied to his Innocence.)

So does every piece has an individual will or are they all connected and "controlled" by one piece (the Heart, most likely) or someone?

Hmm... Originally, all the pieces of Innocence were one big block, Hevlaska's cube. It's feasable to assume that they could be connected. However, if they were connected, one would expect that the Exorcists would be able to use that connection somehow to locate other Innocence, that there would be some sort of reaction when pieces of Innocence neared each other. It wouldn't necessarily happen, but it would make sense. But I personally think that the Innocence are currently completely separated from each other, with individual will, just working towards a common goal. That's just speculation, though. XD

On the Noah: Yeah, in the Bible, God saved Noah from the Great Flood because the world was so wicked God felt he had no choice but to send judgement. Hence the current Noahs feeling that they are superior to normal people. XD I predict that the Noah (or at least, Tiki Mick and Rhode) will end up being saved by Allen somehow. Both of them have been portrayed as sympathetic, if misguided characters. (Tiki with supporting those friends of his we saw on the train, Rhode with her interactions with Allen so far.) The 14th, meanwhile, is very interesting. We still don't know why he chose to defect. It could have been because he realized that the Earl's plans for world destruction were evil. Or it could have been for completely unrelated reasons.

I'm guessing the Heart would choose the stronger candidate and, if we believe the 14th had indeed be forgiven, Allen's connection to him wouldn't be a problem.

Hm, that's an interesting point. Allen's Innocence, after all, was surprisingly able to survive being crushed by Tiki, which could indicate that it was the Heart, as the Heart would presumably be a strong Innocence. I agree with you though, we know too little about the Innocence (and the 14th, for that matter) to tell yet. :)

A big problem in figuring out who is the Heart is the fact that no one seems to have a clue as to how to figure out which piece is the Heart. As they said in the beginning, the Heart looks like any other piece of Innocence. There isn't a way to differentiate it at this time. It's very possible that Hevlaska has the Heart though, considering the masses of Innocence she guards. :D And it sounds like Hevlaska and Rouvelier go way back... I'm wondering if they were engaged or something before Hevlaska arrived at the Order. Anyway, there's something going on between them; Rouvelier was adamant about not letting Hevlaska be killed, as I recall.

(Ahahaha, I blathered on so long I went past LJ's character limit. XD The last part of my reply:)

The Vatican is a new and interesting body. We know nothing about them. For all we know, the Earl could have infiltrated the Vatican already. Also, I'm wondering if they are attempting to find a way for non-Innocence equipped people to kill Akumas... Or even to create weapons out of Innocence without hosts. *looks forward to hearing more about the Vatican*

In fact... I'm wishing to see the Black Order break from the Vatican and start acting on its own. I can so see Komui doing that to protect the Exorcists XP

That might actually be a possibilty. The Order is relocating to the Asian branch, after all... and they have control of the Arc. Plus, Allen is possibly going to go on trial soon, and the Order needs him to fight the Earl. With the Arc, the Order might have enough power to separate from the Vatican and endure the threat of "the Pope's army." :O

(Hee hee, I don't know better! XP And this is fun. XD)

Not at all! :)

Thank you! ^_^ And yes, the Bookmen are shadowy and ambigous, so there's no telling what their motives are. At least with the Vatican, we know they want to stop the Earl, and at least with the Noah, we know they want to destroy the world. We really don't know what the Bookmen are after. They claim to want to neutrally record history, but if that were true, why send in Bookman and Lavi to the front lines in the first place?

Bookman has been fascinating. Sometimes he seems to be there to offer support to the others. Other times, he's seen repeating the Bookmen motto of "have no heart." I honestly don't know what he would decide to do... Though, it seems like he wants to leave if Lavi gets any more attached. But I don't know if that would necessarily mean that Bookman would turn Lavi over to the Bookmen clan in the case of an emergency.

(Hee hee, if I do, I certainly will. XD Right now though, the problem would be how would the characters know if Lavi was the Heart in the first place? There seems to be no way to tell so far. Fufufu. XD)

No problem! :D

Oh, yeah! Would anyone stand by him unquestioningly, or would there be just enough doubt? The Vatican would definitely make a grab for them, as it were, especially if (as crisyah suggested above) something happens so that they start regarding him as a candidate for the heart. I wonder -- would Lavi and Bookman even get a trial, or just be judged guilty since they are members of the guilty group? I agree. I think it might expand the us-versus-them mentality to anyone associated with the Bookmen, so that the Bookmen could come be seen as being nearly as bad as, say, akuma. If there are enough people siding with and against Lavi, it might even start to affect operations within the Order. But, I'm rambling a bit here. ^_^;;

Only if I can friend you back! ^o^

Agreed on everything you said about the Bookmen; so far we have only seen Panda (herefore refered to as such to avoid typos between Bookmen and Bookman XD) and Lavi. We know nothing of the organization itself except that they have to record the hidden history of the world. I think Lavi and Panda being sent to the front lines was a kind of political move; it's as if saying "We provide you with two fighters and, in return, you let us in on your secrets." Get their trust, you know? Could be for purely academic reasons or not, as you pointed out. Also, there's the matter of Innocence actually choosing two Bookmen as hosts; I guess that means at least those two can't be that bad.

"Bookman has been fascinating. Sometimes he seems to be there to offer support to the others. Other times, he's seen repeating the Bookmen motto of "have no heart." But I don't know if that would necessarily mean that Bookman would turn Lavi over to the Bookmen clan in the case of an emergency." --- Exactly my thoughts! I can't make out Panda at all. I think he needs more screen/page time and that includes dabbling on Lavi's past =D Also, I don't know if you read the Gray Ark translations but it says Lavi has been with Panda ever since he was 6. I know Bookmen have no heart and all but... would he really be capable of and willing to give up a boy he raised ever since he was such a small child? We need more info on Panda, really XD

Hum, mind if I suggest something for that fic, based on what we have been discussing? The Earl could find out he was the Heart (thus you wouldn't have to say HOW he knew it XP) and negotiate with the Bookmen somehow. Also, as you were saying down there, the Earl could have infiltrated the Vatican already and would get them after the Heart as well; as the Earl himself said in the manga, it will be harder for the Heart to hide if everyone's looking for it. And then... You get the Black Order breaking from the Vatican and searching for Lavi too XP (I just want to see Komui telling Rouvelier to STFU and leave the Exorcists alone, really XP) And then you get everyone falling apart: Bookmen against the Vatican, the Vatican against the Order, the Order against the Earl and the Earl against and USING everyone... And Lavi in the midst of all this, confused as he is as to whom he is supposed to be and what he's supposed to do.

Either that or Lavi's hammer could start singing:

*insert Road's creepy song here*

Earl Millenium is searching for me
For the precious Heart, he's searching for me
That damned clown can't find me
I'm too smart for him
Earl Millenium is searching for me...

XD

...Bah, I have such stupid ideas, just ignore me, please '-_-

Please, ramble XD It feeds my brain.

I completely agree with you and I don't really think Lavi and Panda would get a trial really; they would probably just be judged as Bookmen and everyone would conveniently forget they were Exorcists as well just as they forgot everything Allen has done for the Order and the person he is upon just a little suspicion he might be related to a Noah that actually went AGAINST the Earl.

Again, sorry for popping into the discussion >_> <_<

"After all, even though Lavi obviously really cares about his friends, he still hasn't broken ties with the Bookmen." --- Exactly. And, to be honest, I'm not sure I want him too. Lavi is both the Exorcist and the Bookman; I think he needs to find a middle ground between the two, not choose one. If he does choose, I think that would only be half a Lavi and I really don't want that.

"But Lavi hasn't stood up to Bookman at all yet. Which leads me to wonder again, what exactly is involved in being a Bookman? What is so important about it that Lavi would apparently have a very hard time choosing between it and his friends?" --- Indeed. As I've said up there, we need more information on the Bookmen (ah, why am i always asking for more info when it comes to this fandom? '-_-) But it could also be habbit, you know? He's been trained for it ever since he was such a little child, he DECIDED to join the Bookmen, wasn't dragged into it as, say, Lenalee to the Order. I think he honestly doesn't want to let go of his Bookman side.

As for the Noah... Hell, I have a gazillion questions about them XP If they were saved by God, as in the Bible, why would they side with the Earl, who is God's enemy? Road says the Exorcists follow a false God... She says they are the Earl's sacrificial lambs... I have a gazillion theories on that but I'm able to argue against them all so I have yet to decide on anything. I'm not so sure they'd be redeemed. As you point out, they have been shown to have redeeming qualities, especially Tyki, but it's about the choices they make, you know? They don't WANT to stop being Noah; is this solely because of the demon inside them... or is Hoshino playing with human's darker side here? It all depends on her intentions, I think.

"A big problem in figuring out who is the Heart is the fact that no one seems to have a clue as to how to figure out which piece is the Heart." --- Hum, yeah O_O How can they find something they can't even identify? I'm curious to see how Hoshino handles this. Will some piece of Innocence perform something immensely bad-ass? I can only think of Allen's Crown Clown and its exorcising properties, really '-_- Unless the Heart doesn't do anything special O_O You know, since it binds all other parts together, it doesn't really have a great power but exists to GRANT power to all the others and give them a will or something? More reasons for Lavi to be the Heart since his Innocence seems so... unspecial. YAY =D

"And it sounds like Hevlaska and Rouvelier go way back... I'm wondering if they were engaged or something before Hevlaska arrived at the Order." --- Hum, Hevlaska is at the Order ever since it was founded some 100 years ago O_O I'm guessing Rouvelier isn't that old? XD I think it's a family matter, really. Remember the boy who was experimented on? Maybe he was offered as a sacrifice (as some from Rouvelier's family seem to be) but he was actually close to Rouvelier and he blames Hevlaska for killing him? I'm thinking something like this, anyway O_O

The Vatican sounds fishy, at least coming from Rouvelier's mouth... "No other reason than defeating the Earl" That sounds just a little weird and almost as if he's hiding something... Maybe it is true to him, who I think is kinda like a pawn... Believeing everything his superiors tell him, never questioning anything. But who knows? The Pope could be a nice old man who just wants everyone to be happy. *must find out who the Pope was in the 1890's*

They're relocating to the Asian Branch? O_O Whaa~? I thought that wasn't confirmed yet. Lavi was even asking if it was near London, since he heard something about it. Could you please point me where you saw this, please? Or did you just assume it since they have an easy means of transportation to get there: the Ark?

(It is fun ^_^ But now I won't shut up >_> <_< Sorry about that... And I honestly hope were not banned for clogging everything with huge posts XD Also, sorry about the reposting but LJ is hating me atm ;-;)

More brain food!!! YAY!!! =D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_XIII --- Link to wiki because I'm too lazy to make a summary XP

This is the Pope at the time DGM supposedly takes place and something about him strikes me as interesting: "People differ in capacity, skill, health, strength; and unequal fortune is a necessary result of unequal condition. Such inequality is far from being disadvantageous either to individuals or to the community." --- I don't know if you watch Code Geass but that sounds like something the Evil!Emperor would say...

Also: "He firmly re-asserted the scholastic doctrine that science and religion co-exist, and required the study of Thomas Aquinas and opened the Vatican Secret Archives to qualified researchers, among whom was the noted historian of the Papacy Ludwig von Pastor." --- All lies, I tell you... He was showing the records to the Bookmen Clan =D And the science department! Oh and maybe the Noah? XD

Seriously, now... Hum, does this help a little to the discussion? (and maybe that fic? XD)

Again, sorry for this '-_- I'm clogging your e-mail inbox XD

Hmm, I like that idea, of the Bookmen handing Panda and Lavi to the Order in order to be able to fill their records. It makes a lot of sense. :D

"Also, there's the matter of Innocence actually choosing two Bookmen as hosts; I guess that means at least those two can't be that bad."

Good point, the Innocence did like them enough to become hosts for them. Hm.. That might actually explain Panda's erratic behavior a little. Perhaps he too is struggling between his duty to the Bookmen clan and a genuine caring about the Order. The Innocence wouldn't have chosen him in the first place if he hasn't a goo person... and in order to be a "good" person, you'd have to have a heart. And anyway, Gramps keeps saying, "Bookmen have no need of heart," but that doesn't mean that they don't have a heart. ;)

Agreed on Panda needing a lot more screentime. ^^ "Also, I don't know if you read the Gray Ark translations but it says Lavi has been with Panda ever since he was 6. I know Bookmen have no heart and all but... would he really be capable of and willing to give up a boy he raised ever since he was such a small child? We need more info on Panda, really XD" I was just about to download the translations, actually. :D But you bring up a great point there. Again, the question is "Does Panda have a heart, despite what he's been telling Lavi about not needing one?" It's interesting. ^^

"The Earl could find out he was the Heart (thus you wouldn't have to say HOW he knew it XP) and negotiate with the Bookmen somehow."

Brilliance. :DDDDD And you make an excellent point on how that could lead to a breakdown of everything, with everyone not trusting each other and trying to eliminate the rest.

*hysterical laughter* I suppose that would be a give away, ne? XDDDDDDDD And your ideas aren't stupid, they're brilliant! :D

I think that certain people would unconditionally believe in Lavi.. Lenalee and Allen come to mind. Then others would probably doubt a bit, but still eventually be on Lavi's side... Kanda and Komui type people. Then there would be everyone else, who may or may not believe in Lavi. It would depend on how incriminating the evidence against the Bookmen was. ^^ If the Vatican got wind of even the possibilty of Lavi being the Heart, I'm pretty certain that they'd want to grab Lavi, if only to keep the Earl from getting to him. If Lavi were found to be the Heart, I doubt that the Vatican would even bother with a trial for Lavi, as they'd be able to say that they were imprisoning Lavi for his own protection. Bookman might get a trial, though. ^^ Indeed. And, imagine if the Vatican got involved too. There would be a lot of conflicting loyalties... a very volitile situation. Ramble! Ramble for everlasting peace! XD

Sounds great! :D *friends*

Exactly. And, to be honest, I'm not sure I want him too. Lavi is both the Exorcist and the Bookman; I think he needs to find a middle ground between the two, not choose one. If he does choose, I think that would only be half a Lavi and I really don't want that.

I agree! It is possible to record history and participate in it as well, after all.

As for the Noah... Hell, I have a gazillion questions about them XP If they were saved by God, as in the Bible, why would they side with the Earl, who is God's enemy? Road says the Exorcists follow a false God... She says they are the Earl's sacrificial lambs...

Good questions. The Noah seem to sincerely believe in what they're doing-- wiping out everyone else on the planet. Maybe they think they're doing God a favor by finishing the job he started with the first Flood? And I think you're right on the Noahs representing the darker side of humanity. It's a toss up then, as to whether any of the Noahs will be redeemed.

Unless the Heart doesn't do anything special O_O You know, since it binds all other parts together, it doesn't really have a great power but exists to GRANT power to all the others and give them a will or something? More reasons for Lavi to be the Heart since his Innocence seems so... unspecial. YAY =D

Ooh, now that's an interesting theory. Perhaps the Heart acts as a booster of sorts, powering up other Innocence in its general area? Or it could act as a coordinator, allowing the Innocence to work together better?

Hum, Hevlaska is at the Order ever since it was founded some 100 years ago O_O I'm guessing Rouvelier isn't that old? XD

... Oh. XD So much for my reading comprehension skillz. *laughs*

I think it's a family matter, really. Remember the boy who was experimented on? Maybe he was offered as a sacrifice (as some from Rouvelier's family seem to be) but he was actually close to Rouvelier and he blames Hevlaska for killing him? I'm thinking something like this, anyway O_O

That would make sense. Although, I thought Rouvelier wanted to protect Hevlaska when the Order was under attack from the Level 4? I need to reread ~~the entire manga~~ those chapters. XD

The Vatican sounds fishy, at least coming from Rouvelier's mouth... "No other reason than defeating the Earl" That sounds just a little weird and almost as if he's hiding something...

Very fishy. The Vatican sounds way too large to be soley interested in defeating the Earl. It seems to me like the Vatican doesn't completely trust the Order... which makes sense. At the moment, the Order is the only organization capable of combatting the Earl. I'm certain the Vatican isn't happy about that.

Believing everything his superiors tell him, never questioning anything. But who knows?

I don't know either. I'm not quite certain what to make of Rouvelier. He definitely has an agenda, but beyond that, I can't even begin to guess. XD

They're relocating to the Asian Branch? O_O Whaa~? I thought that wasn't confirmed yet. Lavi was even asking if it was near London, since he heard something about it. Could you please point me where you saw this, please? Or did you just assume it since they have an easy means of transportation to get there: the Ark?

I thought I read it at the beginning of the Zombie chapters.... *checks* Oops, my mistake! XD; I thought that they specifically said the Asian branch, but it looks like I was wrong. ^^; Sorry!

That's a very interesting article on the Pope. Assumining that the Pope of Hoshino's world is the same as this one... it brings out some interesting possibilities. This Pope definitely seemed like the type to overlook some suffering in the interests of bettering the church. At the same time, he wasn't evil either. Perhaps in DGM's Vatican he could have started up a committee to oversee the Order and the fight against the Exorcists, a committee which then later develped alterior motives/was infiltrated by the Earl/any number of shady things. Fufufu. >D

And no problem with the inbox thing. :D

Yeah, I think Lavi would have to do something really horrible, while presumeably in his right mind, without later regret, right in front of Lenalee and Allen before either of them would start to truly doubt him. ^_^ I agree with your assessment of Kanda and Komui. I think it would be more of the non-exorcist personell that would be vulnerable to heavy doubt and polarization of opinion. Of course, the more incriminating the case, the more people against him (and Bookman) -- but to use Allen's situation again, any circulating rumors could be much more incriminating than actual evidence. Eep. I'd say you're right. If Lavi was the Heart and the Vatican managed to get him, I'd be afraid of Lavi being subject to tests or observation while imprisoned, to see if there was any difference between the Heart and the rest of the Innocence (other than the obvious ^_^;;). It would be interesting, with Bookman and Lavi separated. Do you think, if the Black Order got word ahead of time that the Vatican wanted to imprison him, that those loyal to Lavi would try to sneak him out first? Sort of a civil war on one side. o_0 Oh! If the Earl and the Noah found out about this situation and decided to try to take advantage of it, things could get even messier.... Ramble... for great justice?

Yay! *friends back*

It would be a very real danger, I think; it seems that, when it comes to groups of people, it's pretty easy to toss some logic out the window to make room for paranoia. Haha, I never really thought about it, but it is ironic that Allen was regarded with suspicion for having a possible link to a figure that was (if you go by the-enemy-of-my-enemy) a sort of ally to the Order.

Not a problem at all! More thoughts = more fun. :D

"That might actually explain Panda's erratic behavior a little. Perhaps he too is struggling between his duty to the Bookmen clan and a genuine caring about the Order." --- I think Panda, being older and more mature than Lavi, is able to find that balance I was talking about down there more easily. But, maybe, he's not just reminding Lavi; he has to remind himself sometimes too that he can't get too involved. I think, up until now, he has been doing a good job at keeping neutral but helping when needed. The fact that he's always stressing how Bookmen have no need for a heart (as in, they don't need it, like you said, not that they don't have it) is to keep Lavi in check. The damned boy is already crazy and jumping into fights; imagine if he decided, like Allen, that he had to protect everyone and sacrifice himself?

Oh, sorry, seems like I spoiled you a little bit '^_^. I really think Panda has a heart, as I was saying; I just think he knows how to (and wants Lavi to know as well) not do unnecessary things and be able to keep a certain distance to maintain the records imparcial. Can you imagine Allen or Lenalee recording history? "And then the evil Noah cruelly broke poor Allen Walker's arm and left him to die with a whole in his heart, made by his monstruos Tease." ...Yeah, no one wants to read that in a history book...

...I'm dead serious, I think that's how they will find the Heart; it will start singing something like that... XD

Eh, eh, thank you ^_^ Glad I'm able to provide some brain-food!

"Or it could act as a coordinator, allowing the Innocence to work together better?" --- I'm going more for this one. And who better to do that than Lavi, the one who is able to put his heart aside to see the bigger picture and plan a strategy; the one who also can't get rid of his heart enough to sacrifice the other Exorcists? This is, off course, assuming he can find a middle ground... Oh, I can imagine Lavi being a General; the chief of the General's, really, with Lenalee, Allen, Kanda and maybe Krory and Miranda (?) working under him XD Such a bright future, I envision for my dear Lavi! ...And such awful subordinates I give him XD

Hum, I have to reread those chapters as well since I can't quite remember Rouvelier's reaction and his position about Hevlaska; all I remember is him wanting to drag Lenalee over there >.< (And Lavi being oh so sweet to her XD I love that boy...)

The Vatican seems to want to keep the Order on a tight leash. Too tight, really. Of course they're the only ones who can fight the Akuma and they are very important but why should they send someone like Rouvelier to keep it under check? Remember the reunion with the Generals? Just a little too radical, I think... But does he have specific orders to act like that or that's simply him being himself? Though I do think he gets a sadistic pleasure from his power over the Order (his creepy smile while telling Allen about the 14th suddenly comes to mind) and the whole talk of "the pope's army" makes me think he's not only a radical but also that he was put in that position BECAUSE of that. But maybe he's just a bad apple... Or maybe he'll end up being a GOOD apple because he genuinely seems to hate the Earl and is being used by his superiors who have other intentions?

Like you said, any number of shady things could happen... The problem with DGM (as well as why it is so interesting compared to some other manga out there *cough*Bleach*cough*) is that there are countless possibilities... and we can only guess!

Although, sad as it is, I think we're going into the last arcs of the series; the plot can't be stalled forever, these new uniforms give out the impression that they are finally going into an open war (at least they're all military - and awesome - looking and everything O.o), we had that chapter on the Noah and the Earl's human form, Allen's already a Point Breaker so there isn't much more he can evolve in terms of powers (unless he's really the Heart '-.- but even so...) and the fans are getting too itchy to get the mysteries (namely Kanda's tattoo and "that someone" and Lavi's eye) solved to keep it from them for too long without starting a riot XD I really think after this crack mini-arc, Hoshino will start uncovering everything she has introduced so far; that could actually be the reason why she has stopped this week to "sort out the upcoming plot".

Having said this... DGM's ending scares me a bit O.O Not only because I love it and there's always that bittersweet feeling at seeing something you love ending but I really think some characters I love might die. Allen, for example ;-; I have been saying that for a while now... You know when Lavi was watching him going into the light in the Ark? And I can totally see him dying for his friends in a messianic way (Mana did give him the birthday of 25th of December and I have been reading some analogies between his role and Jesus that seem to make sense, so...). And I can see Lavi taking the lead if that happened and keep everyone together, really, which could be ANOTHER reason for him being the Heart. I read somewhere that he was supposed to be the main character for another of Hoshino's manga so maybe we would get a DGM2 focused on Lavi, then... But that's beyond the point XD

(Aww, man, I should gather up all my theories and all we've been discussing and post them up on my journal since it doesn't even have an opening post, ne? Or maybe gather them all into that fic that will never see the light of day... XD Thanks for the discussion, it's really interesting ^_^)

I agree. I think that Bookman is interested in Lavi's best interests too... He'd want to help Lavi find that balance as well, I think. And good point on not wanting to encourage Lavi to run off and sacrifice himself to protect everyone ~~like he tried to do after he broke Rhode's mindcontrol.~~ XD

Not a problem! ^^ *has now read the translations* I agree with you here too. I think that it's pretty much impossible to be completely disconnected from events, but that you can (and in the case of a Bookman, should) maintain a certain distance for the records. ^^

XDDDDD More reason to hope it isn't Lenalee! Imagine her feet starting to sing. XD "Tralalala, I'm the Heart, now tap-tap-tapdance!" *shot*

By the way, do you mind if I friend you? ^_^

XD Poor Lavi. With subordinates like them, who needs enemies? Though, I think that is actually a likely theory. If the Heart is just a booster, that would explain why it doesn't appear any different than any other Innocence. And you make a good point on Lavi's ability to make detached decisions, too. ^^

Hee hee, all I remember was Allen fighting off the Level 4 and Lavi and Kanda jumping in to help him hold it off, even though they didn't have any weapons. XD

Yeah, there's a lot of questions hovering around the Vatican and Rouvelier. Though, I have to say that Howard Link ~~Ahaha, I nearly misspelled that as "Kink"~~ seems like a genuinely good person to me. So maybe that reflects on his superior a bit? I don't know. XD;

It does seem like it's time to start going into the final stage of things, doesn't it? And the new uniforms are awesome. <3 But it will be great to finally start getting some answers to the trillions of questions. XD I'm very curious about Kanda's mysteries, in particular. And Lavi's eye is going to be interesting as well. Gramps doesn't have anything going on with his eyes, after all. Fufufu.

I'd be sad to see the series end, too. There aren't many manga series that really excell in characters, plot, and artwork, but DGM is awesome in all those respects. As for people dying... I'm going to cling to the general "main characters don't die" idea as my only hope. ~~Allen can't die, nooooooo. T.T~~ Although Allen is the type to be quite happy with sacrificing himself for others. *forboding feeling*

I remember reading about that. Lavi was supposed to be the main character of a manga called "Bookman," but Hoshino ended up using him and the Bookmen in DGM instead. Fufufu... That means that there is definitely a lot more to the Bookmen than what we've seen, since Hoshino planned out a lot for them. :D

(Hee hee, that would be awesome! And I've really enjoyed our discussion too. ^_^ It convinced me that I need to reread the manga, ahaha. XD)

Exactly; even if it wasn't only because Panda liked Lavi (which I really think he does XP) he would want his apprentice to be a good Bookman (and not die in a stupid way, since he would be hard to replace due to the eye thingy XP).

ROFLMAO XD Have you ever played FFX-2? That (lame) part when Yuna started jumping around controlled by the dressphere suddenly came to mind XD

Not at all! ^_^

Imagine Kanda being bossed around by Lavi? And Krory and Miranda messing everything up? XD Though I really think he's the perfect choice to keep everyone in check O_O Allen's just... not leader material; too soft. Although he's still just a fifteen-year-old, he could mature a bit and become a wonderful leader, who knows?

Ooh, I remember that as well! Who's the cold bastard who doesn't care about anyone now, Kanda? XD (Only slightly related but that part, after the fight, when everyone was mourning together - right before Tapp died - and Kanda walked away alone broke my heart ;-;)

To me, Link is even weirder than Rouvelier O_o I really don't know what to think of him... If you think about the part, after the Level 4 fight, when he carried Allen back; was that really just his job or an act of kindness? Anyway, he's too stiff and uptight for my taste XP

I'm really thrilled about this next stage; so many things could happen! Ditto about Kanda's mysteries 8D "There aren't many manga series that really excell in characters, plot, and artwork, but DGM is awesome in all those respects." --- Exactly! Don't get me wrong, I love Bleach, Naruto and a bunch of others as much as the next person but DGM... I don't know; it's special. It's really well done, the characters are fantastic (I remember I only settled on a favourite after Lavi's fight with Road because I love them all so much), the Noah are amazing villains and the plot is just... gahh. Well, it got us discussing this far and we're only really talking about Lavi and the Heart XD

"I'm going to cling to the general "main characters don't die" idea as my only hope. Allen can't die, nooooooo. T.T Although Allen is the type to be quite happy with sacrificing himself for others." --- I'm trying to do the same but as I was rewatching the anime recently, I just keep thinking about Lenalee's weird dreams of everyone dying and that opening with her crying and Allen resting on her lap... Maybe that was solely about the rough time he had at the Asian Branch? But then again, she started having those weird thoughts again in the Ark... So is the anime only taking liberties or do they know something we don't? *crosses fingers for Allen and everyone else to be safe and sound by the end of the manga*

Ne, ne, maybe we'll get a full mini-arc about the Bookmen, since Hoshino has so much backstory done on them? :D

(I think I'll do that as soon as college stops feasting on my brain. Aah, don't worry, I'm the girl who keeps forgetting important plot points XD Like what Rouvelier told Allen about the 14th and that Krory was a parasitic type XD --- But I didn't get any sleep that night so maybe... that's an excuse?)

In Search of the Heart - A Theory about the Heart of the Innocence

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