dgray_man | I love Lavi, You Love Lavi but...

Hmm, I think you may have to extrapolate a bit on the idea and provide a few examples. I'll be honest -- I believe to some extent, pretty much ever major cast member of every manga/anime series ever have been MS-ized a bit (*cough*BLEACH*cough*)... Unless they're the type of character who is meant to start out as a weak sort of character and be forced to grow into their powers. Also, who knows really how powerful the Innocence actually IS? I mean, we don't really have any basic standard to go by, as Hoshino-san killed off pretty much all the other exorcists. THANKS FOR THAT, SENSEI >.< (Why on Earth would you ask if I'm still bitter, ne?) And I'm not saying any of this to, like, actually disprove your points. I just never had thought of it that way and am always up for a good debate!

Dude, just check my userpics and I'm sure you'll have my answer on the paid account issue. xD

Well just thinking overall. Seemed they got more stereotypical - more obvious with Lenalee than Lavi who magically can do everything without fail far too often, I think. Same could be said for Allen to a degree. Just was thinking about this after reading all the wank in different communities lately, and when it's fine to like the M.S/G.S'd characters.

And aha, can sympathize on the bitter part. I wanted to learn more about Klaud's students. I did research on name meanings and if they're to be judged on that she would have had many of the really religious students who were passive and that her job would have been to toughen them up.

Ahaa, and I see. But might STILL have to wait (scalped Sigur Ros tickets floor, section three, row B? Totally worth it!) unless I'm able to get my other commissions come in after I get funds for my Canada trip and make sure I'm set for Otakon. RAWR.

Do you mean personality-wise, power-wise, or both? Personally, I'm just glad that Linali finally has her powers back. In Rabi's case, he seemed to be the least effective in battle during the Ark Arc except for Linali--he found a key and just barely escaped Rhode's mental attack, that was it. And then he got beat up by tentacle-Tiki and had his hammer broken.

I felt like Allen was getting way too many power-ups around volume 12. He's the Destroyer of Time, the Controller, and he can de-Noah people. If he also has the Heart, that's going to be really lame ~~especially since Jasdero should have it!!~~ The sword-arm power-up felt like it came way too soon after Crown Clown, which had been an awesome way for Allen to recover his powers. The power-ups might not have annoyed me as much, but he was also spouting generic main character lines around that time. (Yes, we know you aren't going to give up.) That might have been just me, though.

DISCLAIMER: I like Allen a whole lot.

I AGREE WITH YOUR DISCLAIMER!

But er, yeah. Agreeing with a bunch.

And oh snap, I was supposed to post this to the DGM discussion thing, wasn't I? Oh bother.

Oh yeah, that. XD

Allen's just so gentlemanly for a Shounen Jump main character, it's a nice change. I felt like he was a pretty flat character at first, but as the series progressed he seemed more rounded (with a few exceptions). And I'm usually indifferent towards main characters, at best.

I want you to know that I blame you for my desire to write a fanfic where Jasdero and Devit are male Linali clones created by Komui. :(

In a sense, I can feel it, but moreso with Lenalee (as much as I love her to bits). For Lavi.. mm... he might have leaned a bit to that side, but since I haven't delved into his character that deeply (and even with his skills at all), I can't really say much. And, Lenalee was delayed quite a bit (both physically in battle and emotionally) since her innocence decided to fall into a coma during the Arc arc.

I certainly would have liked to see more of the exorcists that just died in a instant with only a small piece of action actually shown and only names mentioned. =\

rHDFGUH WUT? ME? WRY? WHAT'D I DO THIS TIME~? HOW? And I totally shouldn't be editing porn for AWMD in class if we're talking fanfic. *snorts*

I agree on wishing to see more exorcists. That's one reason why I didn't mind the anime as they did something with them ~~and Suman makes my boxers too tight.~~

It was from our discussion in this post (http://community.livejournal.com/dgrayman/89830.html) SEE I HAVE EVIDENCE ~~and a plotline in my head~~

LOL you edit that in class? ~~I read a couple more chapters but still need to catch up, sorry.~~

The main four have all been on the Sueish side, imo, but it's generally that way with main characters anyway...

Linali? Yes. Definitely yes. She went from a strong independent female character to helpless and weak in a very short time. Where Allen has suffered more damage than her legs, he's recovered in so much less time but she's been useless for like 94340492 chapters. It was like when her hair was cut that her dignity went along with it, and she became a sobbing mess that cheers from the sidelines.

And she had been missing from the action so long, that when she finally got thrust into it again? It looked... cliche. She has ~special~ Innocence, there was a touching flashback, and yet she was still sobbing weirdly at the end.

Not to mention there are more than enough male characters who fawn over her and think she's perfect.

I have been wondering where the real Linali was for a long, long time.

Lavi, though. Eh. I dunno, I haven't paid too much attention to him because I'm not the hugest fan, but I don't think he's as Stu-like material as Allen or Kanda. And again, all of the "main" characters in manga generally have ~unique~ things going on for them anyway so I suppose it's normal.

Hmm... I'm going to say this even though Linali as a character makes me roll my eyes more often than not, BUT if she's been MSed a bit now that she's regained her Dark Boots, she paid for it with all that time she spent not being about to do anything. Besides, she's probably not the only char to go the way of the Crystal-Type, just the first. I do agree with

kumori_no_koi on Lavi, though. Maybe Hoshino-san is doing this because she wants them to be able to keep up with Allen's sudden new upsurge in bad-ass, I dunno. I think also that a lot of this hinges on what the Earl's got to gain by keeping the Black Order around; those words have really stuck in my head since Panda-face mentioned it.

I was really looking forward to meeting Cloud's students as well! I mean, Cloud herself is so bad-ass, it would stand to reason that they'd be rather interesting in their own right as well; especially since it seemed that she had at least two girls as her disciples. Heh, you make a good point about the name meanings; I actually ended up playing Gwen Flail as an OC in a message board RPG a while back.

Wai, concert~ Those are always fun! Have fun with your trip and the con!

Edit!: I also feel the need to say that Linali as a character could have been handled about a trillion different, better ways so that she wouldn't make any of us want to rip our hair out. (Is that possibly a pun? Oh, hell, I think it is.)

Edited 2008-05-22 14:56 (UTC)

Honestly, so far? I think Lavi is the least Gary Stu'ed out of all the main characters. He's the most well-liked by fans on the North American side, I think (pretty sure Kanda's still in first in Japan?), but... when you consider it, he's the weakest. He's got a nifty memory and an OMGSEKRIT! eye, but he's really not spectacular in battle, and his power level falls far below Allen, Kanda, and Lenalee.

An important thing to understand about Mary Sues is that those characters are author's pets. They are characters the author cares for deeply, and are usually used for excessive wish-fulfillment. However, an actual Mary Sue is distinctly characterized by an author's insistence of forcing the readers to accept the character as perfect, whether they like the character or not. If the character is turned irritating by being thrown into the readers' faces and having dozens of "AREN'T THEY AWESOME?!" and "WORSHIP THEM!" notes pointed at them, that is a good sign that they're becoming a Mary Sue.

Hoshino Katsura's characters are extremely idealized, to the point where most of them fit well-known Sue criteria. However, she gives solid grounds for their perfections and thus creates an equally solid ground for their flaws. More importantly, she doesn't really make you love or hate any character; she simply writes the story, and it's up to you to decide if you love or hate anyone shown in it.

That final point pretty much nullifies any of her characters' potential status as Sues.

As a final note, firepower is very rarely is a good reason for calling a character in Sue. Especially in D.Gray-man. I mean, every single important character in it has the firepower equivalent of a nuclear missile depot.

I think the issue with Lenalee is that lately, she is almost completely missing from non-combat situations. Before, most of her emotional and character-developing moments were from interactions with Allen, Komui and other characters. But in most recent scenes, she appears as a background character and vanishes in the crowd, only to reappear in combat sequences.

Because Lenalee is a character who originally had balanced screentime, she seriously suffers now that she barely appears as a human being and mostly shown as a fighter.

Personally, I feel Hoshino Katsura is rushing from fight scene to fight scene too much lately. She should relax and give us severl chapters with nothing but socializing. The way it is, it feels like the distance between characters is growing because they never get to sort out their feelings, and it becomes harder to see them as good characters because we're barely shown any sides of them as people.

I think if we're really going to look at any character as Gary Stu'd--power, knowledge, and personality wise--we should look at Cross Marian. And I'm a big Cross fan.

Sueing involves an intention by the author to make a character perfect and to force feed that perfection to the audience. I can't remember any recent incidences where Ravi saves the day without personal repercussion. Ravi's Innocence hasn't particularly grown or evolved lately, whereas Allen's has evolved numerous times throughout the series. We haven't seen much of his Bookman side godmodding knowledge in the series. I don't really understand why Lavi, over all of the other characters, would be considered Sueish? What's your reasoning?

As for Rinali, I don't think she was turned into a Mary Sue, so much as she dropped off the face of the manga and then suddenly dominated so much screen time that it left the audience confused. Rinali wasn't ever voluptuously taming the men with her female wiles, pwning left and right without repercussion while everyone worships her boots. She was incapable of combat for dozens of chapters; she was an emotional wreck upon returning to HQ; and unlike all of the other characters, she actually had a human, teenage moment to question just how right forcing kids into war was. It's true everyone love Rinali at HQ, but she grew up there most of her life. She's known those people since she was a little girl. It seems to me that Ravi, Allen, Kanda, Komui, Reever, Johnny, and all of the other HQ characters are also well loved by everyone. The HQ characters are often treated as family, so the affection toward Rinali is in no way exclusive.

XD That's just my opinion, though.

Well, yes, I understand the concept of the Mary Sue, but mainly was referring to some of the personalities and the particular events that occurred. I love all the characters in the series, with the exception of Johnny since I think he's a twatwaffle, but it's something I've been thinking about.

Interesting point about Cross though we have to also think about his alcoholism and rampant womanizing which balances it.

Just all around it's really neat reading what everyone thinks about this. :)

OH SNAP! THAT'S RIGHT! I FORGOT ABOUT THE CONVO ... EVEN THOUGH I MADE UP THE ORIGINAL POST! LAME OF ME!

Ahaha, and I have to because Ban-chan's really insanely busy looking for a new job and since we made the "LOL WE'LL UPDATE EVERY WEEK THING" er... yeah. ): We don't want to be asshats. And pssh, no need to apologize! But look forward... to PORN!

... wait, that's like every two chapters. Oh bother.

Yes, but his alcoholism is presented as another one of his superhuman abilities; we've never actually seen him incapable of performing because he was intoxicated. I doubt any real person could drink as much as we've seen Cross toss it back! Even when we witnessed him drunk with Klaud, the moment Allen appeared, he was placed back in control. His trysts don't exactly have repercussions; aside from an unimpressed Klaud, we're given the impression that Cross is well-loved by women. XD Not only Anita, but her mother, too! I really love Cross -- but I can see the case made for him, especially when other flawed characters like Ravi and Rinali, are called Sueish.

Why do you think Ravi is Sueish, by the way? :)

I agree, I love fan discussion! &hearts

Edited 2008-05-22 16:46 (UTC)

I need to take my math exam, then I shall write my opinions on this!
And my theory why Klaud's actually in love with Cross despite turning him down. Booowah.

.... You've RPed as Gwen???

... Would you consider RPing her with my Cloud at the Destroyer of Time RPG? ( destroyeroftime.proboards78.com/ ). In the game, they're bringing back deceased characters (as sort of a main pivotal plot point), and Cloud at the moment is relatively bored and put on minor suspension. There's also a flashback board for all the back in time stuff (like there, I did something with Cloud meeting Sokaro for the first time for example with the guy who I think is the best Sokaro EVARRRRR)

Agreed on both Rinali and the fight scenes!

Although, even when Rinali regained her dark boots, she still required Allen and Cross's help to defeat the Lvl 4. On top of that, she required Allen's help despite his inability to move and he came through. That is hardly the perfection we expect from a Sue.

I admit, though, I'm a boyslut for fight scenes. D: But I also agree that there could have been more pause and finesse. You never know what's Hoshino's plan vs. production plan.

I understand your reasoning, but honestly, building my response off actual character powers and personality traits would mostly fall into personal opinions about characters. The character's personality and abilities are not important pieces in identifying the character as a Sue. Their treatment by the author is.

For example, you mentioned Lavi might be a Sue, but the only reasoning for that I see is that the fandom treats him as the best thing since sliced bread. Lavi has been getting the ass end of the stick for a very long time in the manga. Ever since his fight with Road, all the screentime he got are his interaction with Bookman and the scenes where he helps Allen swings the Crown Clown during the fight with level 4. I don't think a character who is barely on-screen can be considered a Sue.

I think I disagree pretty wholeheartedly that Rinali was ever Sue'd. It's true other characters are affectionate toward her, but that's in no way limited to only Rinali. Unlike many characters, Rinali grew up in HQ and has known most of them the longest. Her brother is an important person; they would never think to defy Komui by treating his little sister not nicely. All of the HQ characters are well-loved by each other. If they weren't, Tapp's fate wouldn't have been so emotional.

Rinali's Innocence isn't entirely ~*~special~*~ given that they theorize other characters can achieve it as well. She certainly suffered long enough before a power up. |D Not to mention, she required the help of both Allen and Cross to defeat the lvl 4, despite the fact that Allen couldn't actually move his body. Her combat skills weren't exactly superior to the boys'. XD

That said, I totally agree there were serious problems in the way Rinali's character was handled. I was disappointed to see her so helpless for dozens of chapters. I couldn't understand why she was suddenly unable to cope with anything around her, and that she had so much screen time doing nothing. But that doesn't make her a Mary Sue. XD I'm hoping we'll start to see more of the old Rinali now.

I love Lavi, You Love Lavi but...

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